Author Topic: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond  (Read 18597 times)

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Offline Jozz

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 09:52:01 AM »
Did you just mangle together "closer to the vest" with "shoot from the hip"?

No.

Closer to the hip is what I meant. It's ready and alert, but not yet drawn the big guns.

Anything else?

Offline MJW

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 03:35:46 PM »
I'm of a mind that O'Mara may be incompetent on the narrow issue of the right to be free on bail

I don't think we really know yet how well O'Mara will do if bail's denied.  The legal argument in the motion for a reasonable bond was bare-boned to say the least, just mentioning the Florida constitution, State v. Paul,  and section 907.041, without further explanation.  I believe that may be intentional -- sort of "a word to the wise," or "I know the law, you know the law, and you know I know the law."  In both bond hearings, O'Mara proceeded in a manner that surprised a lot of court observers.  I hope if bond is denied, he might have another surprise in store, and think he just might.

It might be worse for Zimmerman if Judge Lester sets the bond at an amount just on the edge of unreasonable rather than denies it entirely.  I think the 5th DCA would have to ignore Paul to uphold a denial.  I doubt they would, though they have done so in the past.

Offline Jozz

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2012, 05:33:13 PM »
I think he should stay in, and considering it was his silence at question, as to his respect for the integrity of the court, I think silence was entirely the wrong approach.  I wonder if it was GZ or O'Mara that decided that, exactly... I imagine O'Mara but that would mean he doesn't trust GZ at all... if O'Mara has stuck to how they didn't really have a nefarious plan but more just a random scheme, then the prosecutors could only have asked him about that, yes?  That's bad if you can't trust a self-defense defendant to speak for themselves about apparent misconduct on his part.

I know we can all sit around here and talk about the integrity and respect for the court. Stuff like that, But I heard it with my own ears George told his wife to pray and tell the truth. You heard it too. Now, I respect the guy because he didn't sell out his wife. He was thinking about her, as he should have been, and didn't worry about the integrity of the court as much as he needed to.

Let's be honest, He shows where his loyalties lie and it seems to me those loyalties fall in the right spot.

Does that mean that his wife didn't possibly perjure herself, no. That's for a court to decide though and she's innocent until proven guilty, just like every American charged with a crime.

Offline pyrrho

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2012, 06:42:33 PM »
Above it was said that Shelly Zimmerman was innocent until proven guilty of perjury.  Not quite... she is either innocent or guilty in fact, right now... the legal system will treat her as under suspicion and not as if guilty... but the evidence is before us.  You can't pretend she's officially innocent until her case, you can claim she will exonerated as innocent, and I would disagree.  I'm not feeling a lot of Trayvon wasn't proved guilty and is innocent vibes in this. 

Someone at my channel on yt has argued that GZ did not hit that cop, because he plead down... it only counts what your convicted of, I am told.  Ok, good, TM was convicted of nothing... innocent till proven guilty.  No one has proved his guilt, starting a fight with the guy following him.

Offline Jozz

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2012, 07:10:27 PM »
Above it was said that Shelly Zimmerman was innocent until proven guilty of perjury.  Not quite... she is either innocent or guilty in fact, right now... the legal system will treat her as under suspicion and not as if guilty... but the evidence is before us.  You can't pretend she's officially innocent until her case, you can claim she will exonerated as innocent, and I would disagree.  I'm not feeling a lot of Trayvon wasn't proved guilty and is innocent vibes in this. 

Someone at my channel on yt has argued that GZ did not hit that cop, because he plead down... it only counts what your convicted of, I am told.  Ok, good, TM was convicted of nothing... innocent till proven guilty.  No one has proved his guilt, starting a fight with the guy following him.

Semantics.

He didn't hit the ATF officer, He pushed him. He wouldn't have made that mistake if not for the fact that the person was undercover and failed to identify himself in the situation. Hasn't that already been discussed in great detail on the YT channels?

Who said that Trayvon was convicted of anything? Do you think you have proven that he didn't start the fight and if so how?

Offline Aussie54

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2012, 07:30:14 PM »
Above it was said that Shelly Zimmerman was innocent until proven guilty of perjury.  Not quite... she is either innocent or guilty in fact, right now... the legal system will treat her as under suspicion and not as if guilty... but the evidence is before us.  You can't pretend she's officially innocent until her case, you can claim she will exonerated as innocent, and I would disagree.  I'm not feeling a lot of Trayvon wasn't proved guilty and is innocent vibes in this. 

Someone at my channel on yt has argued that GZ did not hit that cop, because he plead down... it only counts what your convicted of, I am told.  Ok, good, TM was convicted of nothing... innocent till proven guilty.  No one has proved his guilt, starting a fight with the guy following him.

Your comments are all over the place. How does one start with so many facts being twisted in the first place. Perhaps with Shellie Zimmerman.

I think Jeralyn has already addressed this issue, and I know it has been addressed elsewhere, that is the State, in its charging document, and I might add in its document that saw the bond being revoked, omitted a portion of the transcript at the bond hearing. In the omitted portion of the transcript, Shellie responded to a question about what was currently in the account, and she referred BDLR to her brother-in-law. It was the "Persecutor" who failed to call on Robert Zimmerman jr. at that point in time.  In other words, it looks like the State was being deceptive when it blindsided that other hearing on June 1 and the bond was revoked.

As for the second point, the person was an ATF officer. He was not a cop and he was undercover.  The story I have read is that Zimmerman was attempting to help a friend who was being manhandled by the undercover ATF officer. I think that the outcome was the anger management course.  I am sure that a lot of people find themselves in the same kind of hot water for pretty much the same reason - helping a friend in trouble.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2012, 08:21:37 PM »
Someone at my channel on yt has argued that GZ did not hit that cop, because he plead down... it only counts what your convicted of, I am told.  Ok, good, TM was convicted of nothing... innocent till proven guilty.  No one has proved his guilt, starting a fight with the guy following him.

Wrong again, Pyrro. GZ has never been convicted of anything. His charge was reduced and then referred to pre-trial diversion and dismissed after he completed an anger management course. He was never found guilty, he did not plead guilty and was not convicted of anything. Perhaps your fellow poster somewhere is thinking of a deferred judgment. That's not the same as pre-trial diversion. GZ's case was sent to pre-trial diversion.

As for Shellie, she is indeed presumed innocent and you haven't even heard her defense yet. And she may well have a defense based on the inartful questions the proseuctor asked her.

If you are going to state an opinion, please at least get your facts straight.

Offline Expy

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2012, 11:41:16 PM »
If Judge Lester denies Zimmerman bond, O'Mara will probably file a Habeas Corpus petition with the 5th District Court of Appeals.  I hope O'Mara is already working on it, because I have a bad feeling it will be needed. 

I agree that should be the next step, but I am thinking that if Lester denies bond premised on the misrepresentations that were made, then O'Mara would be well-advised to associate or consult with other counsel, at a minimum.   There is a significant potential conflict-of-interest burbling to the surface, and I honestly don't see how he can properly represent his client in an appellate proceeding where the issue of his own effectiveness at the trial level might be pivotal.

Quite simply, we don't know what discussions or advice took place between O'Mara and his client, & his client's wife, prior to the initial bail hearing.   But, if bail is denied, that may be a very important factor down the line in terms of the defendant's ability to get the decision reversed.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2012, 12:00:33 AM »
Expy, Good to see you over here. I agree with your post about O'Mara being in a delicate position -- he's really a witness to everything, and his credibility is also a factor. The judge even said at the April 20 hearing he doesn't doubt for a second what O'Mara said about how he came to learn about the money. I've thought he has been wearing two hats in this bond issue since the night he went on CNN to disclose his client's failure to tell him about it, before he even told the court.

I doubt he'll see that way though-- maybe he has his client's consent in writing and  a statement agreeing  that his version is correct.  But it's been a thorny issue for me all along.

Offline MJW

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2012, 12:15:33 AM »
I agree that should be the next step, but I am thinking that if Lester denies bond premised on the misrepresentations that were made, then O'Mara would be well-advised to associate or consult with other counsel, at a minimum.

I, too, sometimes wonder whether O'Mara's interest in protecting his own reputation works at cross-purposes to representing Zimmerman's best interests.  Nevertheless, I think the argument for bail is legal, not factual.   Under Florida's constitution, statutes, and court rules, the alleged misrepresentations do not provide a valid basis for denying bond.

Offline Expy

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2012, 12:38:40 AM »
I, too, sometimes wonder whether O'Mara's interest in protecting his own reputation works at cross-purposes to representing Zimmerman's best interests.  Nevertheless, I think the argument for bail is legal, not factual.   Under Florida's constitution, statutes, and court rules, the alleged misrepresentations do not provide a valid basis for denying bond.
I agree in theory, but as a practical matter the facts do count -- and of course it depends a lot on what Judge Lester writes in an opinion.   

If the judge denies bail, then I would expect to see him writing a  opinion that muddies the waters somewhat by emphasizing the other issues beyond the misrepresentations, but also to come down very strong on how the misrepresentations as to finances undermine trustworthiness in a way that shows disrespect for the court and makes him feel that Zimmerman would be a flight risk.  (I'm not saying I agree with that argument -- that's just what I would expect to see the Judge write).

There's an old saying:  bad facts make bad law.  The problem is that sometimes appellate decision are results oriented. Appeals courts sometimes struggle to come to a resolution that seems to defy precedent--- even if they have to carve out a new legal exception or rationale.   So if Judge Lester writes an opinion that paints Zimmerman's role in a particularly negative way, that could very well impact the decision of reviewing courts.

Offline MJW

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2012, 12:52:36 AM »
I agree in theory, but as a practical matter the facts do count -- and of course it depends a lot on what Judge Lester writes in an opinion.   

I can't disagree with that; and though I'm less certain than cboldt of O'Mara's weakness in handling the bond issue, I suspect there are appellate specialists who could do a better job anyway.

Offline Expy

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2012, 01:10:30 AM »
I can't disagree with that; and though I'm less certain than cboldt of O'Mara's weakness in handling the bond issue, I suspect there are appellate specialists who could do a better job anyway.

I also feel that O'Mara made significant mistakes in the way he handled the bond application, though I believe for different than cboldt.  I just feel that the initial April 20th hearing was bungled through the attorney's (apparent) failure to fully document and corroborate facts before putting on a witness to testify to those facts, and failure to properly interview & prepare that witness for the questions she would be asked.

Offline MJW

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2012, 01:21:06 AM »
Again, I can't disagree.  If O'Mara had spent more time preparing Zimmerman prior to the first hearing, I think the whole PayPal issue would likely have been avoided.

Offline MJW

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Re: Zimmerman: Hearing to Re-Set Bond
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2012, 01:29:11 AM »
In O'Mara's (partial) defense, I will say that the issue of a large, newly-created defense fund is something that O'Mara almost certainly never encountered before.

 

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