Author Topic: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?  (Read 9704 times)

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Offline Jozz

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2012, 09:17:22 AM »
I think the discussion evolved from the original question into SYG and how it does apply to this case.

I sure would like to see everyone come out of fantasy land and start showing facts as to what laws were violated before the altercation became physical and how they make George the aggressor. What are the laws that he broke and WHY is he only being charged with second degree murder, when every other defendant out there would be charged with multiple crimes leading up to the end of the altercation?

So, What laws did George break?

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2012, 10:49:03 AM »
The accusation of law breaking against Zimmerman, that has been best supported so far, is lying to police investigators.  This thread was intended to explore what happens to the self defense case if the judge/jury buys into the liar hypothesis.  I find it weird that there are other posters who think that somehow exploring this hypothetical brings down the quality of the discussions on this site.  I doubt that Mark O'Mara would agree and might well be thinking about the same thing. 

The assertion that Zimmerman's story of when the gun came out is better supported by the evidence can be argued but it is not so self evident that one has to insult a person who disagrees.  The evidence against it includes Zimmerman's strange account of what happened when they were on the ground as well as judging what his most likely choice would be when leaving the car or meeting up with Martin.  But maybe this is better discussed in detail on an evidence thread.

Offline Jozz

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2012, 10:55:42 AM »
The accusation of law breaking against Zimmerman, that has been best supported so far, is lying to police investigators.  This thread was intended to explore what happens to the self defense case if the judge/jury buys into the liar hypothesis.  I find it weird that there are other posters who think that somehow exploring this hypothetical brings down the quality of the discussions on this site.  I doubt that Mark O'Mara would agree and might well be thinking about the same thing. 

The assertion that Zimmerman's story of when the gun came out is better supported by the evidence can be argued but it is not so self evident that one has to insult a person who disagrees.  The evidence against it includes Zimmerman's strange account of what happened when they were on the ground as well as judging what his most likely choice would be when leaving the car or meeting up with Martin.  But maybe this is better discussed in detail on an evidence thread.

Could you please explain to us what "strange account of what happened when they were on the ground" means? I'd like to know what was strange about what he described.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2012, 12:23:59 PM »
Jozz, instead of me rehashing the oodles of stuff out there on Zimmerman's several accounts of the fight, let me send you to two of Susan Simpson's posts on her blog.

http://viewfromll2.com/2012/06/21/zimmermans-police-statements-are-not-consistent-with-established-facts/#comment-3939

http://viewfromll2.com/2012/06/21/zimmermans-police-statements-are-not-consistent-with-established-facts/#comment-3937

However, nothing beats listening oneself to the various accounts with Singleton, Serino, CVSA expert and the walkthrough while trying to write down where his and Martin's hands were at various times and trying to reconcile everything.  Where were Martin's hands when Zimmerman got that shot off, perfectly aimed at Martin's chest? 

Offline Jozz

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2012, 12:59:28 PM »
Jozz, instead of me rehashing the oodles of stuff out there on Zimmerman's several accounts of the fight, let me send you to two of Susan Simpson's posts on her blog.

http://viewfromll2.com/2012/06/21/zimmermans-police-statements-are-not-consistent-with-established-facts/#comment-3939

http://viewfromll2.com/2012/06/21/zimmermans-police-statements-are-not-consistent-with-established-facts/#comment-3937

However, nothing beats listening oneself to the various accounts with Singleton, Serino, CVSA expert and the walkthrough while trying to write down where his and Martin's hands were at various times and trying to reconcile everything.  Where were Martin's hands when Zimmerman got that shot off, perfectly aimed at Martin's chest?

I was asking for your opinion because you're the one making the comments. I'm not interested in other sources at the moment.

I guess next we'll be discussing how Trayvon perfectly aimed at George's nose? You're creating some sort of weird scenario in your mind where George was walking around the entire night twisting his mustache with the intentions to kill someone. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is the outcome he intended.

And for some reason, You all still ignore the fact that Trayvon had 2 minutes and 30 seconds to get home before Zimmerman ended his call with dispatch, starting from the time he said Trayvon ran. How did he not make it home and end waaaaaay back up at the other end of the townhouses 2 minutes and 30 seconds later to confront George?


Offline RickyJim

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2012, 01:42:14 PM »
Jozz you have confirmed my suspicion that you stereotype somebody who doesn't have the same viewpoint as you as being completely on the other side.  As a matter of fact, I think Martin was lurking around looking for a confrontation with Zimmerman.  And if I was on a jury today, I would vote not guilty by reason of self defense, because while I think it is 50-50 that Zimmerman committed manslaughter, I know that is not enough for a guilty verdict.  On every forum on this case I have posted, I get attacked by both sides for not being an extremist.   :(

Offline Jozz

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2012, 02:40:50 PM »
Jozz you have confirmed my suspicion that you stereotype somebody who doesn't have the same viewpoint as you as being completely on the other side.  As a matter of fact, I think Martin was lurking around looking for a confrontation with Zimmerman.  And if I was on a jury today, I would vote not guilty by reason of self defense, because while I think it is 50-50 that Zimmerman committed manslaughter, I know that is not enough for a guilty verdict.  On every forum on this case I have posted, I get attacked by both sides for not being an extremist.   :(

Listen, I'm not attacking you. I'm asking for your opinion. I'm interested in the opinions from both sides, what facts they have and how they came to the conclusions they do. This was an honest question. Do you have an opinion on the information that I asked about? Does that opinion mean that you're pigeon held to one side or the other?


Offline JW

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2012, 02:44:27 PM »
I really could care less if George lied or not. The 911 call by him tells me he lost sight of Trayvon long enough to render actions he had taken up to that point as no longer threatening to Trayvon. The crime scene also shows the location of the beginning of the struggle, confirmed by witnesses 11 and 20, proves Trayvon returned from where he had ran. Hardly the action of someone who is scared. That makes Trayvon the aggressor at that point. The crime scene doesn't lie.

Those factors makes the self defense case for George. If not then look at what happened next. George ends up with head injuries and is pinned to the ground by Trayvon.This is supported by the injuries themself, George's clothes being wet and witness #6. Again, self defense even if George was the aggressor in the beginning...which he wasn't.

Offline Jozz

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2012, 03:01:21 PM »
I really could care less if George lied or not. The 911 call by him tells me he lost sight of Trayvon long enough to render actions he had taken up to that point as no longer threatening to Trayvon. The crime scene also shows the location of the beginning of the struggle, confirmed by witnesses 11 and 20, proves Trayvon returned from where he had ran. Hardly the action of someone who is scared. That makes Trayvon the aggressor at that point. The crime scene doesn't lie.

Those factors makes the self defense case for George. If not then look at what happened next. George ends up with head injuries and is pinned to the ground by Trayvon.This is supported by the injuries themself, George's clothes being wet and witness #6. Again, self defense even if George was the aggressor in the beginning...which he wasn't.

Very nicely stated.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2012, 03:04:15 PM »
And if I was on a jury today, I would vote not guilty by reason of self defense, because while I think it is 50-50 that Zimmerman committed manslaughter, I know that is not enough for a guilty verdict.  On every forum on this case I have posted, I get attacked by both sides for not being an extremist.   :(

Which is precisely why you shouldn't be on a jury. Jurors are not allowed to make up their mind until all the evidence is in.

Your comments are criticized because they are filled with hypotheticals that are not in the facts released by the state or by the defense. You make stuff up and pose it as a hypothetical, and then people start discussing it as if it's real.

I did not ask you to post links to sites hosting these unsupported theories and ask that you do not.

What you might argue to a jury as your theory is not relevant, any more than mine is or anyone else's.  In order to have a worthwhile discussion, especially on the legal aspects, the possible scenarios have to come from the facts and information released by the parties -- the state and the defense . If they haven't raised a theory or provided documents to support one, it's not at issue and leads to a confusing and irrelevant exercise in my view.

Maybe the prosecution will come out with a theory that George Z. got out of his car with his gun in his hand. So far they have not, the police have not said that happened and no witnesses have suggested it. It is at this time a baseless distraction from the real issues.


Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2012, 03:14:21 PM »
Does the commission of the felony prevent him from claiming a stand your ground defense? 776.041 reads as if a person who has committed a felony IS entitled to SYG so long as he exhausted every reasonable means to withdraw.  On the other hand, if somebody commits a felony and is attempting to withdraw in order to simply flee the scene, he's not entitled to SYG. I haven't read or heard any explanation of this.

Mr. Filexican, I did  answer your question on whether someone who is committing another felony is precluded from using deadly force in self-defense.  But I will make one more attempt ( I also put this on the other thread you asked it on):  In order for that bar to apply, the Defendant has to be charged with a forcible felony that is independent from the felony for which he claims self-defense.

George Zimmerman is not charged with an independent forcible felony. He is only charged with one felonius act -- killing Trayvon Martin.

To make it clearer, I have highlighted the 2011 case of State v. Johnson which clearly says so.

Quote
The Florida Supreme Court amended Florida Standard Criminal Jury Instruction 3.6(f) to clarify that the trial court should only include the aggressor instruction when the defendant has been charged with a contemporaneous independent forcible felony other than the one for which the defendant claims self-defense pursuant to Giles v. State, 831 So. 2d 1263 (Fla. 4th DCA 2002). In re Standard Jury Instructions in Criminal Cases (2007-3), 976 So. 2d 1081 (Fla. 2008).

I have also highlighted the Florida jury instruction 3.6 on this point (2010 edition) which states the same thing.

Because George Zimmerman is not charged with an independent forcible felony, the first section of the aggressor statute does not apply to him, even if he was the aggressor. If he was the aggressor, the second section would apply, but that allows him to assert self-defense so long as he was reasonably in fear of serious bodily injury or death, and he had no alternative lesser means available to avoid the danger he feared.

I hope this is clear. Also, you will have to find another forum to post on because I perceive your continued use of Jorge as George Zimmerman's first name is intended as an insult. You have not provided an alternative explanation. Insults are not allowed here.  Thank you for stopping by , and for your interest in the legal aspect of the case.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 04:53:34 PM by TalkLeft »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2012, 03:46:45 PM »
Jeralyn, the posts I linked to were not to unsupported theories.  They were to postings of a critique, by a lawyer, of Zimmerman's statements in police interviews, something central to this case.  You seem to imply by your jury comment that I am more closed minded than the other posters here.  ::)  I doubt that anybody for whom it can be shown posted anything on this case will be allowed on its jury. 

Offline friendofinnocence

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #27 on: July 04, 2012, 03:58:01 PM »
"Jorge", pronounced "hor-hay", is the Spanish spelling for George.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #28 on: July 04, 2012, 05:08:25 PM »

1. That used extra large bandaids to cover up the 2cm and .5cm "wounds" on the back of his head, and the little tiny scratch on his "most likely" broken nose. A "broken nose" that didn't require being set. 


Fail. The "extra large bandaids to cover up the 2cm and .5cm "wounds" on the back of his head" were not applied by GZ. They were applied by SPD personnel as evident in the interrogation video from the night of the incident. I won't even bother with the rest of your drivel since you are an obvious troll as I proved in the Stand Your Ground I thread.

Offline AJ

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Re: Which of These Scenarios Disqualifies Self Defense?
« Reply #29 on: July 04, 2012, 05:15:08 PM »
Fail. The "extra large bandaids to cover up the 2cm and .5cm "wounds" on the back of his head" were not applied by GZ. They were applied by SPD personnel as evident in the interrogation video from the night of the incident. I won't even bother with the rest of your drivel since you are an obvious troll as I proved in the Stand Your Ground I thread.

I think the bandages he's referring to are the ones in the walk-through video, which were put on by his wife :)

 

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