Author Topic: No Blood on Martin's hands  (Read 21730 times)

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Offline Cylinder

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No Blood on Martin's hands
« on: July 04, 2012, 04:54:32 AM »
One of the misstatements of fact that is circulating currently is the claim that none of Zimmerman's blood was found on Martin's hands. The claim is that this exposes Zimmerman's claim of being smothered as a lie. This claim is probably traces back to the FDLE Biology Lab report [p. 106]:
 
Quote

Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.

Exhibit ME-2B Left hand
No DNA results were obtained from Exhibit ME-2B

What's happenning here is the results are being quoted out-of-context.
 
The actual finding:
 
Quote


Exhibit ME-2 Fingernail scrapings represented as being from Trayvon Benjamin Martin
Exhibit ME-2A gave chemical indications for the presence of blood.

STR DNA analysis was performed on samples from Exhibits ME-2A and ME-2B utilizing the AmpF/STR Profiler Plus and AMPF/STR COfiler PCR Amplification Kits.


     Exhibit ME-2A Right hand
     No DNA results foreign to Trayvon Benjamin Martin (ME-3) were found on Exhibit ME-2A.

     Exhibit ME-2B Left hand
     No DNA results were obtained from Exhibit ME-2B   


So the correct interpretation here is that no blood was found under Martin's fingernails. There is no indication that Martin's hands were chemically tested for the presence of blood. In fact, the ME report makes no mention of external blood at all - even surrounding the gunshot wound. Noting the condition of the Walmart bag that was used for CPR and later photographed, you can safely speculate that Martin's chest would have had visible blood as well.

It's probably also worth noting that SPD reports make no mention of measures taken to preserve trace evidence on Martin's hands.

Reading through the crime scene reports, we can get an idea of what happened to Martin's body following the fatal gunshot:

07:17:          Martin is shot.

07:18:          SPD arrives on scene. Martin is turned over, assessed and CPR begins. Sgt. Rainmondo lifts Martin's shirt and applies the Walmart bag to seal the air leaking from Martin's chest. [Raimondo report p. 16]

07:20:          SFD Rescue arrive and take over resuscitation efforts. EKG leads are placed on Martin's lower abdomen and extremities while CPR was continued. [SFD report p. 182]

07:30:          SFD Rescue paramedic Brandy declares Martin dead. [SFD report p. 182] SFD removes equipment. Sgt. Wagner photographs Martin's face [Wagner report p. 18]  Sgt. Raimondo covers Martin's body with a yellow tarp. [Raimondo report p. 16]

09:44:          ME arrives.  Martin is uncovered, examined, fingerprinted, inventoried and photographed. [ME report p. 137]

10:00:          Martin is placed in body bag which is sealed. [ME report p. 137]

10:10:          ME transports body. [ME report p. 137]

This helps show that Martin was in situ for almost 3 hours during intermittent showers with around 30 minutes uncovered. During this time he was treated and his body processed.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2012, 04:56:55 AM by Cylinder »

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #1 on: July 04, 2012, 06:12:32 AM »
One of the misstatements of fact that is circulating currently is the claim that none of Zimmerman's blood was found on Martin's hands. The claim is that this exposes Zimmerman's claim of being smothered as a lie. This claim is probably traces back to the FDLE Biology Lab report [p. 106]:
 
What's happenning here is the results are being quoted out-of-context.
 
The actual finding:
 
So the correct interpretation here is that no blood was found under Martin's fingernails. There is no indication that Martin's hands were chemically tested for the presence of blood. In fact, the ME report makes no mention of external blood at all - even surrounding the gunshot wound. Noting the condition of the Walmart bag that was used for CPR and later photographed, you can safely speculate that Martin's chest would have had visible blood as well.

It's probably also worth noting that SPD reports make no mention of measures taken to preserve trace evidence on Martin's hands.

Reading through the crime scene reports, we can get an idea of what happened to Martin's body following the fatal gunshot:

07:17:          Martin is shot.

07:18:          SPD arrives on scene. Martin is turned over, assessed and CPR begins. Sgt. Rainmondo lifts Martin's shirt and applies the Walmart bag to seal the air leaking from Martin's chest. [Raimondo report p. 16]

07:20:          SFD Rescue arrive and take over resuscitation efforts. EKG leads are placed on Martin's lower abdomen and extremities while CPR was continued. [SFD report p. 182]

07:30:          SFD Rescue paramedic Brandy declares Martin dead. [SFD report p. 182] SFD removes equipment. Sgt. Wagner photographs Martin's face [Wagner report p. 18]  Sgt. Raimondo covers Martin's body with a yellow tarp. [Raimondo report p. 16]

09:44:          ME arrives.  Martin is uncovered, examined, fingerprinted, inventoried and photographed. [ME report p. 137]

10:00:          Martin is placed in body bag which is sealed. [ME report p. 137]

10:10:          ME transports body. [ME report p. 137]

This helps show that Martin was in situ for almost 3 hours during intermittent showers with around 30 minutes uncovered. During this time he was treated and his body processed.

I couldn't find any mention of his hands being bagged.  I was wondering if the weather didn't play a part of that.  I have always been under the impression that they use paper bags for that purpose.  Also, there is the fact that at some point his hands were underneath him.

I haven't been able to figure out how that occurred and who did it.  GZ says that he had extended TM's arms.  IIRC, a witness also says that the arms are extended.   So how did his hands come to be under him.  Did the SPD do that in order to turn him over?  I couldn't find a reference to it anywhere that I remember.

I apologize if I am misstating facts.  I can't open any links to refresh my memory.

Offline Cylinder

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2012, 06:40:14 AM »
GZ says that he had extended TM's arms.

Zimmerman's reenactment of the altercation

At around 11:00

Quote
...and I got on his back and I moved his arms apart cause when he was hitting me in the face and head I thought he had something in his hands - so I just moved his hands apart...

Zimmerman then describes his encounter with W13 - aka Flashlight Man.
 
IIRC, a witness also says that the arms are extended.

FDLE statement from W6

Around 29:20:

Quote
FDLE: Again, referring to the hands real quick for the sake of the audio recording, you were indicating a hand position kind of as if you were swimming, with a hand forward and a hand back.

W6: Correct, correct.

FDLE: That's a face-down position.

W6: Correct.

In a previous interview, W6 calls it like a chalk outline from the old police shows.

So how did his hands come to be under him.

That's a good question. If Ofc. Alaya was correct, then something moved. Did Zimmerman move them back after checking the hands? Zimmerman claims Martin was still vocal shortly before that point - did Martin move them himself? There's no apparent answer to that question.

Did the SPD do that in order to turn him over?  I couldn't find a reference to it anywhere that I remember.

According to Ofc. Alaya's narrative [p. 14], he noticed the position when making first contact with Martin - around a minute from the fatal shot:

Quote
I noticed that there was, what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face down on the ground. The black male had his hands underneath the body. I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results. At that time Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse on the black male but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo an I turned the black male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did compressions.

Offline AJ

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #3 on: July 04, 2012, 07:49:40 AM »
My issue with Ayala is that he doesn't put any notes about the other officer asking a bystander to get some Vaseline and cellophane because of the bubbling sounds when doing breaths during CPR. If he doesn't remember something like that, or doesn't mention it, why should I believe that he's accurate on where the hands were? We have to keep in mind that he wrote his statement some 7+ hours after the incident, and based on him being one of the two performing CPR I doubt he took notes immediately. His memory on where the hands were are just as subject as all other human's memory. I'm not saying he's a bad guy or doing anything malicious, I just don't think we should rely on his statement in regards to where the hands were.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #4 on: July 04, 2012, 09:23:36 AM »
Zimmerman's reenactment of the altercation

At around 11:00

Zimmerman then describes his encounter with W13 - aka Flashlight Man.
 
FDLE statement from W6

Around 29:20:

In a previous interview, W6 calls it like a chalk outline from the old police shows.

That's a good question. If Ofc. Alaya was correct, then something moved. Did Zimmerman move them back after checking the hands? Zimmerman claims Martin was still vocal shortly before that point - did Martin move them himself? There's no apparent answer to that question.

According to Ofc. Alaya's narrative [p. 14], he noticed the position when making first contact with Martin - around a minute from the fatal shot:

I do believe he could have spoken for a few seconds.  GZ said he was saying "ow, ow, ow" so maybe he was able to pull them inward... 

On the other hand, his chest cavity was rapidly filling with blood due to the damage done to his heart so I can't see him being capable of expending any extra energy.  I can't imagine he was alive for more than seconds after the shot.  And surely not a minute or more.

For John to get back outside, for Flashlight Guy to arrive, and that is just before the first responding officer got there...  Those kind of time constraints just make it seem nearly impossible for TM to have done that himself.

IMO, since I am not a medical professional.

Offline Jozz

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #5 on: July 04, 2012, 09:29:27 AM »
Question,  Who took possession of the body first and foremost after it left the scene. Was it improperly handled before the autopsy? Is there a chain of custody report for Martin and his effects from the point he left the altercation point?


Offline unitron

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #6 on: July 04, 2012, 09:52:37 AM »
I do believe he could have spoken for a few seconds.  GZ said he was saying "ow, ow, ow" so maybe he was able to pull them inward... 

On the other hand, his chest cavity was rapidly filling with blood due to the damage done to his heart so I can't see him being capable of expending any extra energy.  I can't imagine he was alive for more than seconds after the shot.  And surely not a minute or more.

For John to get back outside, for Flashlight Guy to arrive, and that is just before the first responding officer got there...  Those kind of time constraints just make it seem nearly impossible for TM to have done that himself.

IMO, since I am not a medical professional.

I'm thinking if Martin did any verbalizing it was probably an incredulous "you shot me", followed by inarticulate expressions of agony, especially if Zimmerman was moving him around.

Perhaps he clutched his chest, Zimmerman got on top and pulled the hands and arms out to the side to check for what he though he'd been hit with, and, finding nothing, decided to put the "scene" back like he found it, and later didn't, couldn't, or chose not to remember having done so.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #7 on: July 04, 2012, 10:13:00 AM »
I'm thinking if Martin did any verbalizing it was probably an incredulous "you shot me", followed by inarticulate expressions of agony, especially if Zimmerman was moving him around.

Perhaps he clutched his chest, Zimmerman got on top and pulled the hands and arms out to the side to check for what he though he'd been hit with, and, finding nothing, decided to put the "scene" back like he found it, and later didn't, couldn't, or chose not to remember having done so.

But there are two witnesses that saw the arms extended.  Mary Crutcher (sp) said she saw him with his hand to TMs back and/or neck.  No one reports that Zimmerman made any effort to move TMs hands underneath him.  In less than a minute, an officer had a gun drawn on him to place him in custody.

It is just an inconsistency placed on the shoulders of GZ when it could very well be attributed to  LE, since they are the ones that are moving the body about while trying to do CPR.  There is also the question of what position his body was in originally.  I thought that his head was perpendicular to the patio but from the pictures, it looks like he is more vertical to the sidewalk.  I admit it is hard to tell due to the yellow tarp.

These are things I don't understand and can't find the answers to by reading the reports.

Offline unitron

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2012, 10:37:42 AM »
But there are two witnesses that saw the arms extended.  Mary Crutcher (sp) said she saw him with his hand to TMs back and/or neck.  No one reports that Zimmerman made any effort to move TMs hands underneath him.  In less than a minute, an officer had a gun drawn on him to place him in custody.

It is just an inconsistency placed on the shoulders of GZ when it could very well be attributed to  LE, since they are the ones that are moving the body about while trying to do CPR.  There is also the question of what position his body was in originally.  I thought that his head was perpendicular to the patio but from the pictures, it looks like he is more vertical to the sidewalk.  I admit it is hard to tell due to the yellow tarp.

These are things I don't understand and can't find the answers to by reading the reports.


You can see in some of willisnewton's jd pages photos that Martin's feet are pointed at the TTL houses and not at the sidewalk.

Someone on bcclist had a link in the past few days to another site that analyzed the shell casing's trajectory backwards to find where Martin was when he was shot.  Worth looking for.

Offline JW

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2012, 11:30:49 AM »

In regard to TM's hands being under him the brain can live 4 minutes after the heart stops so it is possible TM was still able to move. Pulling the hands in would seem to be a natural reflex. Also, check witness #16 testimony. She claims she looked after the shot was fired and saw TM and that his feet were still moving.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2012, 04:24:15 PM »
Quote
I noticed that there was, what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face down on the ground. The black male had his hands underneath the body. I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results. At that time Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse on the black male but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo an I turned the black male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did compressions.

He stated TM was wearing "blue jeans." This is obviously false so why put much stock into the rest of the details in his recollection?

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2012, 04:48:52 PM »
He stated TM was wearing "blue jeans." This is obviously false so why put much stock into the rest of the details in his recollection?

Because if it is raining hard enough to seek shelter, khakis don't necessarily stay khaki colored?  GZ could have very well thought that they were darker than they appeared and assumed jeans.

I have more trouble with shorts v pants than I do with color.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2012, 07:29:51 PM »

You can see in some of willisnewton's jd pages photos that Martin's feet are pointed at the TTL houses and not at the sidewalk.

Someone on bcclist had a link in the past few days to another site that analyzed the shell casing's trajectory backwards to find where Martin was when he was shot.  Worth looking for.

I went and checked out the maps at Bcc.  What is that site?  There is nothing that supports the witness statements down near that T, unless you are suggesting that without collusion, all of them got together and lied?  Basically the same lie? 

That, misstating actual statutes, and the inflammatory rhetoric...

I must have fell down a rabbit hole.

I still want to read about the shell casing and trajectory because I am genuinely interested in another's perspective.  I love guns.  I have had them all of my life.

...but seriously, I couldn't / didn't look for comments or links.

Offline AJ

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2012, 07:31:45 PM »
He stated TM was wearing "blue jeans." This is obviously false so why put much stock into the rest of the details in his recollection?

Actually, he didn't. He said Mr. Martin was wearing some jeans (didn't specify in the call what kind) or sweat pants. In his interview after the shooting he said they were "stonewash" colored. I remember this because the investigator acted as if they hadn't heard of stonewash jeans.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: No Blood on Martin's hands
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2012, 03:55:44 AM »

GZ could have very well thought that they were darker than they appeared and assumed jeans.

He said Mr. Martin was wearing some jeans (didn't specify in the call what kind) or sweat pants.

Redbrow was quoting the report of Officer Ricardo Ayala (p. 14).

 

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