Author Topic: Witness 6 - "John"  (Read 22163 times)

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Offline Screamin Jay

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Witness 6 - "John"
« on: July 05, 2012, 09:23:42 AM »
Witness#6
"John" (MMA style), 1221 TTL, not to be confused with witness #13 Jonathan.
Was watching TV with his fiance (w#17), didn't see how it started.
Heard someone yelling outside in the distance. He could only hear the helps with all doors and windows closed, thinks it might be kids or people having a good time.
Muted the TV, didn't hear anything for a second.
Heard it again, coming closer, getting louder. He mentions it moving from left to right.
He didn't have his patio door open, Looks out through the sliding glass door blinds, porch light is always on, it has a globe around it and is not a flood light, couldn't see out in the grass area very well, sees one person, thinks it might be a dog attack. the Black guy was on top is vertically (but he describes it as being horizontal, laying down) facing away from him. thinks people might just be fooling around. one might be holding the other down using both hands. they are struggling with their hands.
Fiance tells him not to open the door, but he opened the sliding glass door to see better.
Hears "Help, help, help" very clearly. Then notices the guy on the bottom. Seemed like he was pushing up, trying to get up. He was a lighter color, wearing red and white. This is when he knows it's serious, and a fight.
John yells at the two, telling them to stop.
"What's going on out there?"
"Help, help" came out again from the struggle, claimed on TV this person was calling directly to him.
He assumed at first it was the person on the bottom would be the one yelling for help because his logic says that. Later retracted. He says he couldn't see lips moving or tell who was yelling for help.
"Stop, get out of here."
They turned and moved onto the sidewalk with the black person on top, in control, straddling the legs of the other guy, with one leg on either side. It is getting more intense. At first John claims to Serino that there was a MMA style ground and pound by TM. Later retracted. It was too dark. He only saw when they were in an altercation on the ground. while they were hand wrestling. Doesn't see anything in their hands. Does not hear any punching, or head banging sounds.
They are still wrestling so he tells them, "I'm gonna call 911."
He turns around. He goes inside (didn't see how it ended).
Tells his fiance to get off the phone and get upstairs.
Goes back and locks the door.
They are about to make their way upstairs.
7:16:56 hears shot go off.
Ran upstairs to call 911,
7:18:00 calls 911 "They're wrestling right in the back of my porch"
Says "Holy sh*t" because the guy who had previously been on top was lying face down in a sprawled position in the grass not moving.
Sees the first flashlight of a neighbor coming around the corner. The one who had been on the bottom had his hands in the air. The guy who did the shooting said, I shot the other guy in self defense. My gun is on the ground.
After the incident, he saw two people out there with flashlights. One was a cop.
He talked with his next door neighbors that night.
----------------------------------------------
He also spoke to the media. This one changed from seeing a fight to not seeing or hearing any fighting. I think it is becoming clear that the two were both laying horizontal struggling about the gun. I think this was not for possession of the gun but rather the use of the gun. I think the gun was what caused the terrified cries for help, not the fight. So, the gun "wrestling" starts with the cries. It is already going on when John looks out.
It's clear that John was outside at least in his porch area. He may deny it but other witnesses indicate he was.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2012, 10:11:39 PM by TalkLeft »

Offline Screamin Jay

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 09:41:26 AM »
Witness 6 contradicts something Zimmerman has claimed throughout. Zimm says he squirmed off of the concrete sidewalk onto the grass. This would be to the west toward John's patio. This is big in the "story" because it was to soften the head banging and it causes the gun to be exposed.
This witness is saying they shifted from the grass to the sidewalk! That's the other way, isn't it? It fits his account of telling them to get away from there. Moving from his grass onto the sidewalk would be farther away. Hmmmm.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 11:34:16 AM »
Witness 6 contradicts something Zimmerman has claimed throughout. Zimm says he squirmed off of the concrete sidewalk onto the grass. This would be to the west toward John's patio. This is big in the "story" because it was to soften the head banging and it causes the gun to be exposed.
This witness is saying they shifted from the grass to the sidewalk! That's the other way, isn't it? It fits his account of telling them to get away from there. Moving from his grass onto the sidewalk would be farther away. Hmmmm.


Why is that inconsistant? Zimmerman moved his head off the concrete. Its quite posible that this action would slide his lower body further onto the sidewalk.





Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2012, 11:49:14 AM »
Witness#6
He also spoke to the media. This one changed from seeing a fight to not seeing or hearing any fighting. I think it is becoming clear that the two were both laying horizontal struggling about the gun. I think this was not for possession of the gun but rather the use of the gun. I think the gun was what caused the terrified cries for help, not the fight. So, the gun "wrestling" starts with the cries. It is already going on when John looks out.
It's clear that John was outside at least in his porch area. He may deny it but other witnesses indicate he was.

Please quote the statements that justify this opinion. I have not seen any statement where John waivered from the observation that TM was on the TOP, GZ on the BOTTOM. That is not side by side.

I also think it is disingenious to equate not seeing a fight to not being able to distinguish the details

The gun struggle of course is just your unsupported fantasy.


Offline Screamin Jay

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #4 on: July 05, 2012, 12:12:58 PM »
Sorry. Let me be clearer. I'm just saying they may have both been horizontal. One was on top of the other horizontally. The one on top was concealing the other and his clothes from view.
This was after they moved across the grass to John's yard, while the screams for "help" were happening. So, one was laying horizontally directly the ground. On his back? The other is laying on his belly. Their heads would be close together and their feet would be close together. They were definitely locked in a struggle.
I'm basing this speculation on a few witnesses including Austin who said they saw only one person when we know there were two. Before I thought of this I could not figure out how one would be lying alone on the ground. Unconscious? Tasered? Held at gun point?

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #5 on: July 05, 2012, 12:22:29 PM »
Sorry. Let me be clearer. I'm just saying they may have both been horizontal. One was on top of the other horizontally. The one on top was concealing the other and his clothes from view.
This was after they moved across the grass to John's yard, while the screams for "help" were happening. So, one was laying horizontally directly the ground. On his back? The other is laying on his belly. Their heads would be close together and their feet would be close together. They were definitely locked in a struggle.
I'm basing this speculation on a few witnesses including Austin who said they saw only one person when we know there were two. Before I thought of this I could not figure out how one would be lying alone on the ground. Unconscious? Tasered? Held at gun point?


Once again John never waivered from his MMA style mount simile. That is significantly different from the ( reverse missionary ?) position you describe.

After the shot your description could be accurate.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #6 on: July 05, 2012, 03:06:07 PM »
Oh, he waivered from the MMA description.
The moving the fight scene without rolling or one or both getting up
is a bit unbelievable too unless Travon Martin was a crab Muttation from the Hunger Games.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #7 on: July 05, 2012, 03:15:54 PM »
Witness 6 contradicts something Zimmerman has claimed throughout. Zimm says he squirmed off of the concrete sidewalk onto the grass. This would be to the west toward John's patio. This is big in the "story" because it was to soften the head banging and it causes the gun to be exposed.
This witness is saying they shifted from the grass to the sidewalk! That's the other way, isn't it? It fits his account of telling them to get away from there. Moving from his grass onto the sidewalk would be farther away. Hmmmm.

After #6 witnessed the move to the sidewalk, he turned around and ran upstairs obviously no longer observing the struggle. This is when GZ claims to have "squirmed off of the concrete sidewalk onto the grass" right before shooting. It fits perfectly.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #8 on: July 05, 2012, 03:18:51 PM »
Oh, he waivered from the MMA description.
The moving the fight scene without rolling or one or both getting up
is a bit unbelievable too unless Travon Martin was a crab Muttation from the Hunger Games.

He did no such thing. The MMA remark was in reference to TM mounting GZ. Witness #6 never wavered from this stance.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #9 on: July 05, 2012, 04:04:37 PM »
Oh, he waivered from the MMA description.
The moving the fight scene without rolling or one or both getting up
is a bit unbelievable too unless Travon Martin was a crab Muttation from the Hunger Games.

He cautiously refined the blows being thrown MMA style part. He couldn't distinguish hands - TMK he never waivered from the mount.

You should take the time to watch  a real wrestling match or an MMA fight with the opponents down?

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #10 on: July 06, 2012, 08:15:36 AM »
You should take the time to watch  a real wrestling match or an MMA fight with the opponents down?


I've watched MMA. I've watched the AWA. I've seen real fights and I've been in fights.
I've been on my back. Google sub orbital blowout......................one punch

Offline dragon ash

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2012, 08:44:36 AM »
Witness 6 is very interesting; early on I thought he'd be the defense's main witness. But now I'm not so sure - if the bulk of his testimony is going to be 'Martin was on top, it looked like they were wrestling, I couldn't really see either guys' hands and it was really dark', it's hard to see how useful he can be.

Best case scenario for the defense is that they get him to go back to his initial statement that the guy on top was 'throwing down blows' on the guy on the bottom 'MMA style'. Going to be tough tho - I think that #6's first statement (including that the guy on the bottom was yelling for help) included some assumptions that he couldn't possibly know for sure, which is why he refined it to say that he only assumed the guy on the bottom was yelling, etc.

He later refines this to say that they were both lying on the ground, that he couldn't actually see any punches, and that it was very dark. He seems to say that they were both

Offline Cylinder

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2012, 08:44:44 AM »
"Help, help" came out again from the struggle, claimed on TV this person was calling directly to him.

Which interview was that?

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #13 on: July 06, 2012, 09:19:40 AM »
How does he fall to the south?

Serino thought TM hid in the back yard area.
Did GZ eventually come to that conclusion
and walk into the backyard area at least as far
as where his keychain was found?  Did he have his keychain/light in one hand
and the large flashlight in the other? If so did he use a third hand to reach for his phone?
Look, I seem to be an exception around here. I think GZ has a valid self defense case.
I don't think he had any intention of hurting that kid but he sure got himself into a situation
that should not have happened. He also seems like a comfortable liar.
The "Ahmed the terrorist" witness was probably most interesting to the state for his descripion of GZ's "poker Face" and appleshiner persona with authority figures.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #14 on: July 06, 2012, 09:40:00 AM »
How does he fall to the south?

but he sure got himself into a situation that should not have happened.

What situation is that? Walking in his complex?

 

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