Author Topic: Witness 6 - "John"  (Read 23034 times)

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Offline Cylinder

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2012, 10:07:56 AM »
Whether Martin was carrying a pack of skittles or an eight-ball of cocaine, Zimmerman - like every other citizen, has a right to act to prevent death or great bodily injury. The fact that Zimmerman was or could have been armed at the time was something Martin should have contemplated before attacking him.

Martin's death was of his own doing.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2012, 10:39:51 AM »
Following a 17yr old kid armed with ice tea and skittles for several minutes in his truck and then hunting down the kid around the complex for at least a couple of minutes after the phone call to the dispatcher, all while armed with a concealed weapon?

I  think you mean 'hunting for', searching would be a better term. I still like walking, waiting for the police.

Offline Screamin Jay

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2012, 11:03:23 AM »
Which interview was that?
It's in this Fox 35 newscast from the day after the shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTZ3zsZBtEM
"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, "Help, help."

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2012, 11:28:18 AM »
What situation is that? Walking in his complex?

A trip to Tar-Jay turns into a murder two rap.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #19 on: July 06, 2012, 02:49:23 PM »
Whether Martin was carrying a pack of skittles or an eight-ball of cocaine, Zimmerman - like every other citizen, has a right to act to prevent death or great bodily injury. The fact that Zimmerman was or could have been armed at the time was something Martin should have contemplated before attacking him.

Martin's death was of his own doing.
I see, so George has the right to stand his ground, but Martin doesn't. Got it.

Offline Dilbert By Day

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #20 on: July 06, 2012, 03:09:24 PM »
Aside from the apparent fact that one of these individuals was in the "mounted" position, I don't understand the repeated references to MMA. This wasn't a physical altercation involving skilled combatants with hour upon hour of practice in striking, grappling, and counter techniques. And to the best of my knowledge, neither one of these "unwilling" participants was trained in street defense.

Essentially, GZ and TM were untrained strangers engaged in a street fight. In terms of style and technique, you might find a better representation of their struggle at the local schoolyard.

MMA has been referred to as controlled chaos; implying weight classes, gear, rules, referees, discipline, strategy, rigorous training and practiced technique. Conversely, whatever happened that night on the greenbelt between TTL & RVC was utter chaos - involving a firearm. Bad analogy folks; we aren't talking Silva v Sonnen here. Enough with the "from the top position, he coulda dropped elbows" hyperbole.

The fight had moved back on to the grass.

The police had been notified and were moments away.

*Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, and don't bring a gun to a fist fight.

And if you want to go home, don't provoke a situation you might not be able to control simply because you're "packing." Oh, I forgot...he forgot. Never mind!   ;)



Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #21 on: July 06, 2012, 03:30:50 PM »
Dilbert,

John made the reference to MMA he was a witness in fact the only eye witness to the fight.

Sorry - just so you know - if you pummel someone, refuse to relent and he fears for his life - he can use any means or weapon against you to protect his life.

Don't you agree that
Quote
Don't bring a knife to a gun fight, and don't bring a gun to a fist fight
.  would be  little to wordy for your epitaph.


Offline Dilbert By Day

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #22 on: July 06, 2012, 05:42:16 PM »
Dilbert,

John made the reference to MMA he was a witness in fact the only eye witness to the fight.

Yes, I'm familiar with the original MMA attribution.

The only thing I find "wordy," are the excessive descriptions of techniques and combat skills that neither one of our "reluctant" warriors possessed. And even if they were randomly familiar with sophisticated techniques, presumably from watching television, it's unlikely they would have the discipline and presence of mind to attempt them under pressure.

*Never take a knife to a gun fight, and never take a gun to a fist fight.

This little dictum only becomes an epitaph if an individual, CCW or otherwise,  willfully, or unwittingly, chooses to pursue a risky course of action, placing himself and others in jeopardy. This is but one facet of the conundrum facing an untrained GZ in a court of law.

Having both circumvented and survived serious altercations as a trained individual, I doubt you will find me in Zimmerman's position, nor will you find that little aphorism inscribed on my headstone.

I can only wish you the same.

Offline Kyreth

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #23 on: July 06, 2012, 06:37:13 PM »
There's a video of Massad Ayoob in regards to SYG laws, and in it he explains how once someone has you on the ground so that you can't get away, fists become lethal weapons.

Offline Cylinder

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2012, 12:09:42 AM »
It's in this Fox 35 newscast from the day after the shooting.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTZ3zsZBtEM
"The guy on the bottom, who I believe had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, "Help, help."

Thanks, that's just another point of corroboration concerning Zimmerman's account - he claimed that when W6 poked his head out that he begged W6 for help.

Offline AJ

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2012, 12:38:12 AM »
I see, so George has the right to stand his ground, but Martin doesn't. Got it.

The way I'm reading this (and I may be wrong, hopefully one of the law professionals will correct me):

Quote from: 776.012
Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or

Unless Mr. Martin felt his life were in danger, or was in fear of great bodily harm, his duty was to retreat. Would such fear be reasonable just because someone was watching/following you? Not in my mind.

Note 1: I left out (2) because it's irrelevant (just points to 776.013, which does not apply here).
Note 2: I pointed out that section specifically because of the bruising to the head, which could be considered deadly force by everything I've been told by medical professionals.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2012, 12:42:11 AM by AJ »

Offline cboldt

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2012, 03:37:14 AM »
The way I'm reading this (and I may be wrong, hopefully one of the law professionals will correct me):

Unless Mr. Martin felt his life were in danger, or was in fear of great bodily harm, his duty was to retreat. Would such fear be reasonable just because someone was watching/following you? Not in my mind.

Where a duty to retreat applies (it doesn't in Florida) it applies only for use of deadly force.  That's why you don't see mention of "no duty to retreat" when the force is less than deadly.

Neither Zimmerman nor Martin has a duty to retreat.  Assuming Martin confronted Zimmerman, that is perfectly his right; as is the reverse.  The line is drawn at "unwelcome contact" (more or less), and either making that contact (battery), or saying and acting so as to put a person in reasonable apprehension that you are about to make unwelcome contact (assault) are criminal acts, and also actionable in civil court.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2012, 09:54:30 AM »
This is a good witness for the defense.  Probably would help a bit more if he stuck to seeing strikes being landed, but Z has actual injuries, so we know strikes landed.  He hears one of the guys yelling for help and said it was the guy on the bottom, but now isn't positive because the prosecutor got him to admit he couldn't see lips moving.  Seems to also help defense in that he locked his door and looked after his and his fiances safety before calling 911 which would indicate his fear of the situation and add to Z's fear of no one coming to help him.

Its interesting to see the interview techniques of BDLR on witnesses that hurt his case versus witnesses that help his case.  He seems to be conducting the interviews more as a defense attorney than a prosecutor who is simply looking for the truth.

Offline Screamin Jay

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2012, 10:38:01 AM »
Thanks, that's just another point of corroboration concerning Zimmerman's account - he claimed that when W6 poked his head out that he begged W6 for help.

I got the impression that George blamed w6 for making him shoot Trayvon. "He didn't come help me, so I had to shoot". So, it was John's fault. Or lay some guilt on John. As twisted as that sounds it may have played in John's story clarification.
I'm sure there is a quote somewhere. It may have been directed at all the witnesses. Any and all the witnesses are to blame for Trayvon's death in this sentiment. And many of them did mention it.  Even DeeDee who was on the phone.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Witness 6
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2012, 11:09:00 AM »
I assume the quotes are yours, though I do believe Z mentioned something about no one coming to help has he screamed out.  I don't recall him saying anything like he was thinking of shooting Martin and had the gun at the ready, but when John went back inside is when he decided to pull the trigger.  Probably was more like the catalyst for him to feel like if he can't get out of this situation myself, he might die prompting him to think/go for his gun.

 

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