Author Topic: Witness #8 (DeeDee)  (Read 283148 times)

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Offline tchoupi

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #225 on: August 08, 2012, 06:02:25 PM »
Tchoupi, have you listened to the audio interviews of the medics at the scene? I recommend you do. He had lacerations (not abrasions) on the back of his head and abrasions on his forehead, cheeks and elsewhere on his face. There was a lot of blood. Here's a synopis:

O’Rourke

Treated him in back of patrol car
one or two lacerations on back of head
what looked like a fractured nose
he cleaned the blood off his head and face
he was covered in a significant amount of blood
it took a while to clean him up
he’d say 45% of him was covered in blood
there was blood on his cheeks and back in head

Brandy

abrasions on face
a cut on the back of his head
he told an officer he would need to go to hospital and get stitches
officer said ok, he asked if  cops would take him or they (EMTs) should, cop said cops would take him
He had a definite laceration to the back of the head
It  was pretty big, at least an inch by a half inch wide
There were abrasions on forehead, cheeks and face, his nose was swollen
There was one big cut on the back of his head, it was straight up and down
He had blood on his arms and his hands,  they used peroxide to clean him up and wash his hands

Livingstone

He had blood on his face,  and what looked like a broken nose
There were two small  (one inch)  lacerations on the back of his head
One looked deeper than other
They cleaned them so they would stop bleeding
Police asked if he needed to go by ambulance. They told cops he looks like he has a broken nose, may need a stitch or two. After discussion, police told them they would take him and see if he needs stitches
GZ  complained to her about his  injuries, said he was dizzy
When she was trying to get dried blood off she had to  push a little harder,  and he said it hurt. He also said his nose hurt.

(She is the one who took the can from Trayvon’s pocket, it was tall and full she put it to the side.  She said he had a small bullet hole in his chest that wasn’t even bleeding)

I was referring to Singleton's statement.  She is not a med specialist, I agree.  nevertheless, as a detective she must have some expertise in wounds. 
She actually wrote "appeared to be abrasions".
 
Emergency statement used the term "cut", indeed. 
But that term is generic and has little medical meaning.  For what matters here, the terms should be incision, laceration, abrasion, puncture wounds, penetration wound & gunshot.  They describe the type of wound and their severity.

So, I guess we will have to wait until the emergency witnesses are asked to clarify their statements. 

In any cases, the fact that GZ's wounds were treated with soap water doesn't suggest the wounds were bad.  Actually, abrasions are usually treated with soap water.  Moreover, they tend to dry within minutes.

Finally, as you ironically point out, the importance of bleeding doesn't necessarily correlates with the gravity of the wound.   This is why, as you wrote, you can get your heart perforated by a hollow point bullet with nearly blood pouring out your body, while you can get your face 45% covered with blood from wounds that can be treated with just soap & water.

I have, as everyone I guess, experienced incidents that made me bleed impressively.  During sport, leisure & work,  I've had my nose hit many times, eyebrow hit one time, I got the back of my head hitting rocks, my leg scrapped by gravel and my thigh perforated by a screwdriver.  In all these cases, I messed up everything on me and sometimes around me with my own blood. 

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #226 on: August 08, 2012, 06:11:49 PM »
I was referring to Singleton's statement.  She is not a med specialist, I agree.  nevertheless, as a detective she must have some expertise in wounds. 
She actually wrote "appeared to be abrasions".
 
Emergency statement used the term "cut", indeed. 
But that term is generic and has little medical meaning.  For what matters here, the terms should be incision, laceration, abrasion, puncture wounds, penetration wound & gunshot.  They describe the type of wound and their severity. 

Forgive me if I give more weight to the words used by several medical professionals than the ones used by Singleton or you.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #227 on: August 08, 2012, 06:17:36 PM »
Singleton even asked about one of the bumps to his head.  She asked him if his head was formed that way normally ((paraphrasing)) so I would give her very little (zero) credit for being a medically knowledgable person.  Her whole interview I thought was something of a mess.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #228 on: August 08, 2012, 06:19:21 PM »
I was referring to Singleton's statement.  She is not a med specialist, I agree.  nevertheless, as a detective she must have some expertise in wounds. 
She actually wrote "appeared to be abrasions".
 
Emergency statement used the term "cut", indeed. 
But that term is generic and has little medical meaning.  For what matters here, the terms should be incision, laceration, abrasion, puncture wounds, penetration wound & gunshot.  They describe the type of wound and their severity.

So, I guess we will have to wait until the emergency witnesses are asked to clarify their statements. 

In any cases, the fact that GZ's wounds were treated with soap water doesn't suggest the wounds were bad.  Actually, abrasions are usually treated with soap water.  Moreover, they tend to dry within minutes.

Finally, as you ironically point out, the importance of bleeding doesn't necessarily correlates with the gravity of the wound.   This is why, as you wrote, you can get your heart perforated by a hollow point bullet with nearly blood pouring out your body, while you can get your face 45% covered with blood from wounds that can be treated with just soap & water.

I have, as everyone I guess, experienced incidents that made me bleed impressively.  During sport, leisure & work,  I've had my nose hit many times, eyebrow hit one time, I got the back of my head hitting rocks, my leg scrapped by gravel and my thigh perforated by a screwdriver.  In all these cases, I messed up everything on me and sometimes around me with my own blood.

Pay attention. Even at the doctor's office the next day they were called "lacerations".

LACERATIONS.

And I'm willing to wager my nose has been broken more times than yours--and it's only bled once from being broken

 Some people--like you, apparently-- are bleeding sallies.

Others of us are just tough.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #229 on: August 08, 2012, 06:22:23 PM »
Are we drifting too far away from discussing DeeDee? Isn't there a GZ injury thread or something?

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #230 on: August 08, 2012, 06:24:58 PM »

For example, she stated that she heard the phone on the grass before the line went dead.  It may sound like nothing but since the found the phone dead on the grass it gives some level of credence to her story, most knowing that she made her statements before the the first discovery release.  So, it may come down to GZ's story in which TM said "You have a problem?"  against DeeDee's in which he says "What are you following me for?".

Where was Martin's phone found?  If DeeDee is to be believed, wouldn't it have to be very close to the T, where we have independent witnesses saying the confrontation began?

Offline unitron

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #231 on: August 08, 2012, 07:01:22 PM »
Where was Martin's phone found?  If DeeDee is to be believed, wouldn't it have to be very close to the T, where we have independent witnesses saying the confrontation began?

Is there anyone other than Zimmerman who says they SAW the confrontation begin close to the "T", or is that just how they've interpreted what they heard?

And someone somewhere the other day said that if the phone was knocked to the ground but the headphone cord didn't come loose or completely loose right away, the "hearing the grass" the young lady mentions could have been hearing the phone being dragged across the grass at the end of the headphone cord.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #232 on: August 08, 2012, 07:33:45 PM »
Is there anyone other than Zimmerman who says they SAW the confrontation begin close to the "T", or is that just how they've interpreted what they heard?

And someone somewhere the other day said that if the phone was knocked to the ground but the headphone cord didn't come loose or completely loose right away, the "hearing the grass" the young lady mentions could have been hearing the phone being dragged across the grass at the end of the headphone cord.


Only if TM handed his phone to George before he slugged him.
Do you have any evidence otherwise. GZ statements given that evening carry a (IMO) a lot of weight.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2012, 07:45:14 PM by Lousy1 »

Offline tchoupi

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #233 on: August 08, 2012, 07:34:34 PM »
Where was Martin's phone found?  If DeeDee is to be believed, wouldn't it have to be very close to the T, where we have independent witnesses saying the confrontation began?

The phone was found near TM's body 45feet away from the T.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #234 on: August 08, 2012, 07:38:34 PM »
Quote
Quote from: tchoupi on Today at 04:28:21 PM

For example, she stated that she heard the phone on the grass before the line went dead.  It may sound like nothing but since the found the phone dead on the grass it gives some level of credence to her story, most knowing that she made her statements before the the first discovery release.  So, it may come down to GZ's story in which TM said "You have a problem?"  against DeeDee's in which he says "What are you following me for?".
Where was Martin's phone found?  If DeeDee is to be believed, wouldn't it have to be very close to the T, where we have independent witnesses saying the confrontation began?

Why do we assume Crump and the Martin Family were not aware of where the phone was found before the DLR interview. I seem to remember photographs and witness statements long before then. Also Crump had 'friends' inside the department and leaks were a big issue.

Offline unitron

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #235 on: August 08, 2012, 08:34:37 PM »

Only if TM handed his phone to George before he slugged him.
Do you have any evidence otherwise. GZ statements given that evening carry a (IMO) a lot of weight.


"Only if TM handed his phone to George before he slugged him."

If Martin slugged Zimmerman hard enough to detach Martin's own cell phone from the headphone cable and send it flying through the air some 40 feet to land at a point even further south than his body would wind up, then he'd still be alive with a hand that let him know every time the weather was about to change and Zimmerman would be dead or still in a coma.

"Do you have any evidence otherwise. GZ statements given that evening carry a (IMO) a lot of weight."

An apparent lack of evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claim that things started near the "T" does not, will not, and cannot turn ear witnesses into eyewitnesses.

If they saw it, they can say it started there, but if they only heard it from inside their homes they can only say that it sounded as though it started there.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #236 on: August 08, 2012, 08:56:01 PM »
The phone was found near TM's body 45feet away from the T.

Get over the 45 feet.  That is wrong. 


Offline Lousy1

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #237 on: August 08, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

"Only if TM handed his phone to George before he slugged him."

If Martin slugged Zimmerman hard enough to detach Martin's own cell phone from the headphone cable and send it flying through the air some 40 feet to land at a point even further south than his body would wind up, then he'd still be alive with a hand that let him know every time the weather was about to change and Zimmerman would be dead or still in a coma.

Exactly. In order for DeeDee to to hear 'grass sounds' ( if such an auditory tour de force is possible) the phone would have to be dangling  from Tm's pockets as he pursued a staggering GZ down the path to Johns back yard. No doubt other sounds would have dominated.

Quote
"Do you have any evidence otherwise. GZ statements given that evening carry a (IMO) a lot of weight."

An apparent lack of evidence contradicting Zimmerman's claim that things started near the "T" does not, will not, and cannot turn ear witnesses into eyewitnesses.

If they saw it, they can say it started there, but if they only heard it from inside their homes they can only say that it sounded as though it started there.

Yes, every eyewitness agrees. No other evidence contradicts.

Offline unitron

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #238 on: August 09, 2012, 12:23:23 AM »
Get over the 45 feet.  That is wrong.

What part is wrong?

That it's about 10 feet from the southern edge of the east-west sidewalk to the northern side of 1211 TTL?

That 1211 is at least 22 feet wide?

That 1221 is at least 20 feet wide?

Here's the floor plan for 1211

http://www.407re.com/retreat-abaco


Here's the floor plan for 1221

http://www.407re.com/retreat-cancun

unless it's this one which is one square foot larger

http://www.407re.com/retreat-dominica



Offline unitron

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Re: Witness #8 (DeeDee)
« Reply #239 on: August 09, 2012, 12:43:45 AM »
...

Yes, every eyewitness agrees. No other evidence contradicts.

The eye witnesses agree on what they heard?

That part's not really part of being an eye witness, now is it?

Sounded like it started near the "T" is not the same as "I saw it start near the T".

They can say they believe it started near the "T", but they can't say they saw it start there.

Sounds can echo, and appear to be coming from somewhere other than from where they are actually originating.

Sights don't usually echo, unless you count reflections.

None of those "...independent witnesses saying the confrontation began..." "...very close to the T..." can say they saw that.

They can't even say they saw a reflection of it.

 

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