Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 46614 times)

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Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #105 on: July 16, 2012, 09:51:19 AM »
I'll tell you straight up, wall-of-text doesn't intimidate me. I don't read them. Also, you don't have to keep quoting the same transcript over and over. I replied to it the first time. My reply has not changed. Reading the words and seeing his confidence level deteriorate regarding where he's at is a pretty big hint here.
'Confidence deteriorate'? He's -adamant- when asked that he's at the clubhouse.

It's a pretty big damn hint that the initial story he gave after the shooting doesn't jive with the NEN call.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #106 on: July 16, 2012, 09:52:58 AM »

All distances cited below are IMO but based on google earth ruler tool and an overlay of the total station map that ALREADY was in agreement with my earlier assessment based solely on photo analysis.  What do you base your estimates on?

It's 30 feet to the tan bag from the south edge of the T.  So TM's feet are more like 44 foot away from the inside of the T.  And rolling a body over five feet probably puts them back on their face again - try it in bed, and I hope you don't fall off.  Plus we don't know which way he was rolled, but his cell phone was father south.  I doubt the body was moved farther than the width of Trayvon's skinny hips. 

Yes, the struggle on the ground may have moved some but the objects around are in a circle less than eight foot across at most, IMO.  I doubt it moved far since GZ claims TM was "riding" him the whole time, and engaged in many activities such as head banging and smothering etc.  Do you claim the fight went to the ground after TM got on top of hims somehow (piggyback?) because that's not what George claims, ever.

Fifteen feet south of where GZ stood in the walk thru video is even with the north edge of the building.  So if you are trying to claim halfway down past 1211 TTL then the distance is more like 25 feet.  If the fight then went to the ground and moved to where the body/shell casing were found then it moved another 20 feet on the ground.  Looking forward to your You Tube video of a "cowboy on an inverted inchworm" demonstrating that part of the move.  Don't forget the head slams and smothering, MMA, etc. 

Whatever the actual distances are, they are not favorable estimates pulled from thin air and waved away with vague explanations.   

Here's GZ's orignal descriptions to SIngleton, the night of the killing:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"


and during the "stress test" he tells it like this:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me"

 George's story IMO sounds like he was on his feet on the sidewalk at John's backyard at the moment he was punched.  How did he get there and what were the two doing at the time?

My estimates are based on the length of the end unit, the distance between the sidewalk and the end unit, where TM's feet are located (before the dividing fence) and that the body moved off of Z and having been rolled over to do CPR (it would be most likely that the body is rolled down hill which would move the feet further from the T).  Where the body ends up isn't what matters in the analysis of how far the fight moved down from the T, its where the body is when the shot occurs that matters.  I estimate that the dividing wall is just under 40' from the south edge of the sidewalk , TM's feet are just on the north side of that wall and the body moved up to 5 feet further south from where the shot was fired which gives me an estimate of between 30'-35' south of the T when the shot was fired.  Z's keys I believe are somewhere about 6' south of the T which to me indicates an area where he was stumbling south after the first punch. 

I think you are putting way too much in GZ's walkthru and where he positions the bodies.  It was dark, raining, had just taken a punch that broke his nose and was trying to defend against a guy attacking him on the ground.  He is not going to give an accurate assessment of how far the fight moved and when.  He knows about where TM hit him and which direction he fell.  After that, there isn't going to be much accuracy on the distances.

All of the witnesses near by describe a wrestling/fighting that moves south which indicates movement on the ground.  John mentions them moving a few feet on the ground in the few seconds he observed them, so is it really that difficult the moved further south as Z struggled to defend himself?  He mentioned trying to get to his feet which would cause the fight to move.  I just don't see any issue with the struggle moving some 30' in over a minute, probably 10-15 of that coming in the first few seconds.

I can see picking out inconsistencies in his description of the what happened on the call with the dispatcher, but I just don't see any issues with the fight scene given the location of the evidence and witness descriptions.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #107 on: July 16, 2012, 09:58:03 AM »

I can see picking out inconsistencies in his description of the what happened on the call with the dispatcher, but I just don't see any issues with the fight scene given the location of the evidence and witness descriptions.

Perhaps if you close one eye and cover the other?

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #108 on: July 16, 2012, 10:01:42 AM »
'Confidence deteriorate'? He's -adamant- when asked that he's at the clubhouse.

It's a pretty big damn hint that the initial story he gave after the shooting doesn't jive with the NEN call.


Quote
DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [Retreat view or 111?  Now he's coming towards me…. waistband] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [and he's a black male - something's wrong with him] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
...
DS: Okay, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember.

Affirmative,
Affirmative,
Possibly,
Possibly,
Don't know,

You don't call that a deterioration of confidence regarding his location?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #109 on: July 16, 2012, 10:04:19 AM »
But how can all this 'repeated face punching / head-slamming / suffocation' etc. happen if they're spending the majority of the fight rolling around on the grass for 35-odd feet?

George's account of the fight is very clear: Punched, knocked down, straddled, punchy-punch, slammy-slam, suffocaty-suffocate, squiggly-squiggle, gun-exposed, bang. In the video re-enactment, he adjusts this slightly to punched, stumble, knocked down, rest the same.

George's version simply does -not- match the ear-witness statements and the evidence that describe a scuffle / wrestling match down the path. And that's even before we get to the notion of 'punch should push me back to the north-west but I stumbled forward to the south'.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #110 on: July 16, 2012, 10:17:16 AM »
One more random thought regarding the call at the T - I thought it might strange Z would say "And when I walked back, that’s when he came out of the darkness and I guess he was upset that I called the police."

How would TM know Z had called the police?

Just weird.

Yes it is weird.  Did GZ mention(to TM) that the police were on their way during the verbal exchange, the verbal exchange which GZ doesn't really mention during the reenactment

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #111 on: July 16, 2012, 10:23:30 AM »
But how can all this 'repeated face punching / head-slamming / suffocation' etc. happen if they're spending the majority of the fight rolling around on the grass for 35-odd feet?

George's account of the fight is very clear: Punched, knocked down, straddled, punchy-punch, slammy-slam, suffocaty-suffocate, squiggly-squiggle, gun-exposed, bang. In the video re-enactment, he adjusts this slightly to punched, stumble, knocked down, rest the same.

George's version simply does -not- match the ear-witness statements and the evidence that describe a scuffle / wrestling match down the path. And that's even before we get to the notion of 'punch should push me back to the north-west but I stumbled forward to the south'.


Quote
But how can all this 'repeated face punching / head-slamming / suffocation' etc. happen if they're spending the majority of the fight rolling around on the grass for 35-odd feet?

Who claimed that?

Quote
George's version simply does -not- match the ear-witness statements and the evidence that describe a scuffle / wrestling match down the path. And that's even before we get to the notion of 'punch should push me back to the north-west but I stumbled forward to the south'.

Opinion ( and a rather weird one)

Just because  George does not mention duration or intervals does not mean that there are not durations and intervals.

Just because the investigator didn't ask  doesn't mean  you can your substitute your own feelings  as facts .

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #112 on: July 16, 2012, 10:35:29 AM »
Yes it is weird.  Did GZ mention(to TM) that the police were on their way during the verbal exchange, the verbal exchange which GZ doesn't really mention during the reenactment

If you go back there are a number of posts by various commentators discussing if  GZ might think it reasonable for TM to think that George was on the phone with police. We may want to revisit this after we have defense discovery. George was there we were not.

There is no credible  evidence that TM was interested in a conversation with George.  It is speculation to conclude that GM identifying himself would have changed the course of events. One could argue that it might precipitate a fight.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #113 on: July 16, 2012, 10:58:49 AM »
Then, when at the area, he has vague recollections of what HE may have done but says nothing specific about what his aggressor did, and he walks some 25-30 feet south when the actual distance was more like 45-46 feet to the shell casing. 


You are not right about the distance.  You have pushed it for months and then the crime screen sketches came out. 

You were very close about the distance going from the northern most pilar but not from the sidewalk at the "T" going due south.

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #114 on: July 16, 2012, 11:03:59 AM »
You are not right about the distance.  You have pushed it for months and then the crime screen sketches came out. 

You were very close about the distance going from the northern most pilar but not from the sidewalk at the "T" going due south.

Don't insult them with evidence. They will not have that nonsense in their theories!

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #115 on: July 16, 2012, 11:45:57 AM »
To me it seems pretty reasonable GZ, as soon as he exited the truck, that he never really anticipated getting any closer than 50 yards to him. We'll never really know but, I can't imagine TM was pussy footing around when he cut the corner and took off.

IMO we'll never know how fast TM ran because George is very hesitant to describe the running he clearly saw that came just seconds before he exited his vehicle.  He never once brings up any mention of running unless prompted, and when asked specifically and directly to characterize the running, Serino presses him hard but George has no answer.   Where does GZ voluntarily offer an account of TM running away from him without first being prompted?  Maybe there is such an account but I don't know where.  He speaks of "following" but not following a kid who ran away.  But for the recorded call, and GZ's own spontaneous, expletive-laden observation that TM was running, we'd never know TM ran at all, would we?  Is that something he actually forgot or just WANTS to forget?


CS: Okay. Okay. [continues playing call ("sh*t, he's running")] Okay. Full sprint, full-on flight…jogging, trotting…describe the run.
GZ: I don’t remember. I just, cause I was on the phone. Happened so quickly.
CS: Well, ah, I understand that, George, but I guess that it’s um…if it was a bicycle theft I could say okay, but it’s kinda important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, ah, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kinda run was it? I mean, it sounds like he’s running as to get away from you.
GZ: I don’t know why he was running.
CS: But what kinda run was it? Can’t say?
GZ: I don’t know.

IMO he is hesitant to talk about the running since it makes no sense with his false narrative of TM doubling back/hand in waistband/circling that he's just contradicted himself about when played the recording, repeatedly insisting he was "by the clubhouse" during.  Why would someone try to intimidate a car bound person but then run away?  IMO TM ran because GZ was behind him in a slow moving car, keeping pace with the teen after having parked facing the mailbox, in the spot he marked on the map but quickly crossed out.  How many mulligans are we supposed to allow this guy? 

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #116 on: July 16, 2012, 12:14:12 PM »
t know.

IMO he is hesitant to talk about the running since it makes no sense with his false narrative of TM doubling back/hand in waistband/circling that he's just contradicted himself about when played the recording, repeatedly insisting he was "by the clubhouse" during.  Why would someone try to intimidate a car bound person but then run away?  IMO TM ran because GZ was behind him in a slow moving car, keeping pace with the teen after having parked facing the mailbox, in the spot he marked on the map but quickly crossed out.  How many mulligans are we supposed to allow this guy?

Of course then again he may be hesitant to characterize the running because, as he says, he 's not sure.
IMO
Quote
That TM was trying to intimidate GZ is pure speculation.
That TM was not afraid of GM is logically established by his promenade to the car.
Why did TM run? We probably need to examine Martin background and the circumstances leading up to that night to truly know. Until evidence is submitted ( and its been promised) any one would just be speculating - kinda like you.


Quote
How many mulligans are we supposed to allow this guy
I 'm not granting you  anymore mulligans. I think you waste my time by using  dis-proven conclusions as a basis for ridiculous speculations.

« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 12:17:10 PM by Lousy1 »

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #117 on: July 16, 2012, 12:22:41 PM »
...That TM was not afraid of GM is established.
...
Exactly where is this "established."

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #118 on: July 16, 2012, 12:27:03 PM »
Exactly where is this "established."

IMO by both TM willingness to walk to the truck and examine GZ and by his willingness to sneak up behind GZ and assault him.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #119 on: July 16, 2012, 12:41:34 PM »
IMO by both TM willingness to walk to the truck and examine GZ and by his willingness to sneak up behind GZ and assault him.
I think we've pretty clearly established that there is no time for Martin to circle GZ's truck in the time alloted based on the NEN call and the walk-through. The time just doesn't add up.

I see, so now you're using his 'issued a verbal challenge from behind' as 'evidence he wasn't afraid'. Wow. Just...wow.

And the running away from George previously? What was that?

 

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