Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 58608 times)

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Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #120 on: July 16, 2012, 12:46:42 PM »
Wasn't it you, Dragon, who suggested that TM was a Southpaw? That might complicate things too.
If he was a lefty, he would have most likely hit GZ on the right side of the face.

Somewhere in the second big evidence dump I saw where his mother said Martin was right-handed.


Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #121 on: July 16, 2012, 12:51:25 PM »
Somewhere in the second big evidence dump I saw where his mother said Martin was right-handed.

I recall seeing some pics of him gesticulating with his right hand - but I can't remember where?

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #122 on: July 16, 2012, 01:01:34 PM »
My estimates are based on the length of the end unit, the distance between the sidewalk and the end unit, where TM's feet are located (before the dividing fence) and that the body moved off of Z and having been rolled over to do CPR (it would be most likely that the body is rolled down hill which would move the feet further from the T).  Where the body ends up isn't what matters in the analysis of how far the fight moved down from the T, its where the body is when the shot occurs that matters.  I estimate that the dividing wall is just under 40' from the south edge of the sidewalk , TM's feet are just on the north side of that wall and the body moved up to 5 feet further south from where the shot was fired which gives me an estimate of between 30'-35' south of the T when the shot was fired.  Z's keys I believe are somewhere about 6' south of the T which to me indicates an area where he was stumbling south after the first punch. 

You do realize his feet are farther south than his head, right? And that his feet are south of a line made by the dividing wall...  you seem confused.  Have you seen an overlay of the total station map with google earth or google maps?  Or are you doing this all in your own head? 

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I think you are putting way too much in GZ's walkthru and where he positions the bodies.  It was dark, raining, had just taken a punch that broke his nose and was trying to defend against a guy attacking him on the ground.  He is not going to give an accurate assessment of how far the fight moved and when.  He knows about where TM hit him and which direction he fell. 

He knows which direction he fell?  Explain, please. Does George know the difference between forward and backwards?  Because he's claimed both IMO. 

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After that, there isn't going to be much accuracy on the distances.

All of the witnesses near by describe a wrestling/fighting that moves south which indicates movement on the ground. 

Which they heard, not saw it seems IMO.  The only person who once claimed to see movement described a two person foot chase, and later amended this to various other things.  No one describes having seen wrestlers on the ground migrating south over any distance, and GZ's pants and knees are not muddy nor grass stained, so it seems unlikely he and TM tumbled, one after the other being in the top position unless GZ did so without touching his knees to the wet grass or scraping his pants on the sidewalk.  His pants seem quite clean in the photos.  So I'm not sure how they could move very far at all if TM was always on top, as GZ describes.  They can shift orientation from N-S to E-W, etc but travel in a straight line is difficult unless you think TM somehow picked GZ up and shoved him ahead of himself while TM was on his knees with GZ between his legs??? 


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John mentions them moving a few feet on the ground in the few seconds he observed them, so is it really that difficult the moved further south as Z struggled to defend himself? 


If GZ wriggled away from TM while on his back, I can see GZ making a foot or so progress, as he describes when trying to get his head off the sidewalk.  But once he would have moved two feet at the most, TM would have to reposition himself above GZ right? How many times do you think this happened?  To move ten feet it would have to happen five times, in a straight line it seems, with TM's body ending up feet facing south after it's all done somehow.  Again, look at GZ's pants knees and tell me how far he moved on his back. 

I can't wait to see THAT you tube video.  You are claiming 30 to 35 feet of this! 

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He mentioned trying to get to his feet which would cause the fight to move.  I just don't see any issue with the struggle moving some 30' in over a minute, probably 10-15 of that coming in the first few seconds.

So, 15 feet in the first seconds, meaning stumbling, right?  Then the remainder with TM atop GZ?  That's somewhere around 30 feet of "cowboy riding an inverter inchworm," which I don't find credible. 


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I can see picking out inconsistencies in his description of the what happened on the call with the dispatcher, but I just don't see any issues with the fight scene given the location of the evidence and witness descriptions.

In other words, GZ may have not told the whole truth about how he arrived at the T, but after that he's good as gold.  I find your reasoning to be suspect.  You have started with a presumption that GZ is telling the truth and now you are trying to defend it by any means at hand.  IMO you need to examine your own reasoning and consider if perhaps you are wrong to begin with a conclusion in mind already. 

And since you characterize the problems with the NE call lining up with George's statements, I need to remind you that you have opened up a whole can of worms there.  Feel free to have a crack at explaining the "inconsistencies" regarding the movements from the clubhouse to the T intersection, because others have tried.  IMO they are open contradictions and evidence of GZ having pushed a deliberately false narrative he is caught in by SPD investigators and questioned directly about, and he comes up wanting. 

Where was GZ when TM approached his vehicle with his hand in his waistband?  Where was he when "Sh*t, he's running" happened?  Because GZ tells it in two competing places, and neither account matches the NE call recording IMO.  If you claim he is at the final parking spot, please explain his insistence that he was "by the clubhouse" when played the recording, and "near the clubhouse/yeah" in the recording itself, and his silence and "i don't remember" etc when called on it. 

These sorts of problems will be explained by the prosecution as an attempt at a cover story to obscure the real events that happened on TTL and by the mailboxes.  And George's competing stories are both false IMO, whereas the middle position with him waiting by the first curve solves inconsistencies and removes contradictions leaving the conclusion that GZ lied to investigators about how he came to travel from the clubhouse to the cut thru, and they will make note of how GZ marked a map showing that middle position before he crossed it out. 

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #123 on: July 16, 2012, 01:02:18 PM »
I think we've pretty clearly established that there is no time for Martin to circle GZ's truck in the time alloted based on the NEN call and the walk-through. The time just doesn't add up.


Who said circle the truck? - and I definitely don't buy into your timeline.

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I see, so now you're using his 'issued a verbal challenge from behind' as 'evidence he wasn't afraid'. Wow. Just...wow.

Are you saying Wow because you had a catharsis and can finally understand the weight of the evidence or because you suddenly thought of how you could try to invent new evidence?

Evidence supporting Treyvon Attacking
The Testimony of GZ
The Physical Damage
The Debris field
Witness 4  (The only eye witness to the fight)

Vs

Speculations
Well I have a time line that didn't fit...
The what if the little green men speculation...
Treyvon doesn't know how to attack accept from straight ahead.

I can see how it could be difficult.


« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 01:04:17 PM by Lousy1 »

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #124 on: July 16, 2012, 01:04:02 PM »
IMO by both TM willingness to walk to the truck and examine GZ and by his willingness to sneak up behind GZ and assault him.

I'm just going to state, I don't think you are fully aware of the meaning of the term "established."

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #125 on: July 16, 2012, 01:06:36 PM »
I don't know why TM decided to run.  Fear, Dee Dee's urging, or otherwise, something spurred him around that corner.

I just can't understand why after he lost GZ and over a minute or two had passed, he decided to go back to the "T" because if he didn't go back, he had to have laid in wait and out of view.   I am not willing to assign TM the "Lay-in-wait" label. 

In many ways, I think this case is The Perfect Storm between two people.  Everything TM did to avoid GZ confirmed his suspicions of TM being "up to no good."  Under GZ's scrutiny, TM is creeped out and then possibly angry for being followed.  It seems every action one does, the reciprocal action acerbates the situation.

The end result is one of them is dead and the other has a life in tatters.  Everyone within their respective orbits have been negatively affected.  Whatever happens, there are no winners here.

IMO, neither of them is blameless nor are they to blame.  Humans are funny people.

When Sybrina said that their meeting was like some kind of an accident,  maybe in the cosmos she was right.  I understood what she meant from the get-go and thought it was a shame she got so much heat over it.


All IMO!

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #126 on: July 16, 2012, 01:07:47 PM »
I'm just going to state, I don't think you are fully aware of the meaning of the term "established."

es·tab·lish   [ih-stab-lish]  verb (used with object)

3. to  show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter.
4. to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon.

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #127 on: July 16, 2012, 01:11:41 PM »
Who said circle the truck?
....

George did.

DS: Okay, that’s where you parked. Okay. You park here, and then…is that when he comes and circles your car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am. It might’ve been closer in between here…these houses.
DS: Okay. Well, you can move it. Just move it.
GZ: Right around there.
DS: Right around here, okay. I’ll just…that’s okay. We’re just, we’re gonna “x” this one out cause it’s not where you meant. You meant that you came around here and ended up here.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, you ended up here, and then…is that when he circles your car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay. He comes out from where?
GZ: I don’t know.
DS: Okay. All of a sudden you just notice he’s circling your car.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

DS: Okay. So he’s circling your car...
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Are you still on the phone?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
--------------------
Um, and then all of a sudden I see him circling my car and…and then he goes back into the darkness. So…
DS: Just a minute, you’re out, you pull out of your house, and you’re heading down the road as you’re looking at him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You’re on the phone and he dips between 2 houses, is that what you mean?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: So you lose sight of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am. And then he comes back out and circles my car. While I’m on the phone with the police.
DS: Okay, is he saying anything to you?
GZ: I couldn’t hear him, my windows were up.
DS: Okay

Video reenactment:

"And then he came back and he started walking up towards the grass and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car."

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #128 on: July 16, 2012, 01:13:34 PM »
es·tab·lish   [ih-stab-lish]  verb (used with object)

3. to  show to be valid or true; prove: to establish the facts of the matter.
4. to cause to be accepted or recognized: to establish a custom; She established herself as a leading surgeon.

Exactly.  It hasn't been established TM was not afraid of GZ.

Not by a  long shot.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #129 on: July 16, 2012, 01:14:04 PM »
You are not right about the distance.  You have pushed it for months and then the crime screen sketches came out. 

You were very close about the distance going from the northern most pilar but not from the sidewalk at the "T" going due south.

My crime scene/ evidence map agrees exactly with the total station map in regards to almost every element.  I was off on the first aid kit by around ten feet.  The rest were cited almost exactly where I placed them from photos. 

The distance from where GZ stood to the shell casing is near 45 feet, according to google earth.  If you have competing claims, produce an illustration, please.  Mine are available anytime you care to post it, and have been for months. 

All I've heard from you is accusations and speculation backed with nothing. 

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #130 on: July 16, 2012, 01:40:38 PM »
You do realize his feet are farther south than his head, right? And that his feet are south of a line made by the dividing wall...  you seem confused.  Have you seen an overlay of the total station map with google earth or google maps?  Or are you doing this all in your own head? 
He knows which direction he fell?  Explain, please. Does George know the difference between forward and backwards?  Because he's claimed both IMO. 

I'm only quoting a small portion of this so its known who I am responding to.  Yes, I said feet, and meant head.  The head is closer to the T than the feet and is on/slightly north of the wall dividing the two units.  Again, this is a final resting place and not where the fight ended and the actual shot occurred.  You were basing your measurements from where the two sidewalks meet and if the body moved down the hill after the shot, it would be farther from that spot than when the shot occurred.  I imagine the shot occurred quite close to the sidewalk as Z said he had just gotten off the sidewalk when he pulled his weapon.

I've already explained how someone can fall back and forward as the result from a single punch.  The punch to the nose, not coming straight on, would cause a reaction of the head and body rolling away from the punch which would represent the falling back.  If he went straight down like a ton of bricks (as if he were knocked out), it would be the only action his body would do, but then he wouldn't remember much else.  If instead, he's stunned but still functional, he tries to catch his balance as he's knocked back and to the side, he'd be falling foward as he tries to keep his feet.  I don't know if you've ever watched MMA fights, but if you had, you would see what I am saying.  The people who fall straight back are the ones that are knocked out.  The ones who are knocked off balance turn and try to scramble away.  The actions George describes is the later of the two and is followed up by him trying to push away from TM who takes him down. 

John describes them from being off the sidewalk to on the sidewalk as he yells at them.   The shot appears to have occurred off the sidewalk given where the body ends up, 10 or so feet away.  The fight moved from the grass, onto the sidewalk, with the body ending up eventually 10 feet or so away where it finally rested which is about 15 feet of movement in maybe 20-30 seconds.

I see nothing in Z's statements that don't match the witness testimony and evidence on the scene.   The one exception might be to where the cell phone ended up, but we don't know when it fell there.  Dee Dee seems to indicate she heard it hit the grass, which means she would have heard it prior to the fight.  I guess this could mean the argument started where the cell phone was, moved up to the T, then back down, but that would contradict pretty much all the witness testimony.  Another possibility was that he had the phone in his hands at all times and was using it as a weapon, but there doesn't appear to be any damage to the phone.  Still another possibility would be that the phone fell out of his pocket as he ran towards the T.  This would explain Dee Dee hearing it hit the grass and if the phone had not died yet, she'd still potentially be able to hear the conversation, assuming the headphones were no longer attached.  Of course given that her words to the start of the conversation don't match Z's, its possible the phone fell onto the grass as TM ran up to the T and she never actually heard anything else.

I think Z not remembering things exactly is fair game.  We have very little evidence to compare his recollection of what occurred on the NEN call with, so we just have his numerous statements and the call itself.  However, once witnesses start hearing the arguing and calls for help along with the location of the physical evidence, now we have something to corroborate his story with.  I think his story on the fight itself matches the physical evidence and witness statements which is why I'd suggest sticking to the  inconsistencies in his recollection while on the phone with NEN.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #131 on: July 16, 2012, 01:52:33 PM »
Exactly.  It hasn't been established TM was not afraid of GZ.

Not by a  long shot.

Not to you and it probably never will. But you can refute my points ( with evidence - not speculation if you want)

What evidence do you have that GZ confronted and attacked Trayvon Martin?

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #132 on: July 16, 2012, 03:38:30 PM »
leftwig:  we may as well give up, and agree to disagree because I don't find your arguments convincing. 

Yes I've seen MMA fights.  This was not one.  Neither person knows martial arts that I know of.  In those fights I've seen, when one person staggers visibly the other DOES something to take advantage of the opening.  George has NOTHING to say about what Trayvon did during this time, only that he himself did a little doggie paddle motion or something with his open hands....  and that he MAY have been pushed, or he MAY have fallen.  I find this omission and prevarication significant, and indicative of yet another section of the evening GZ is reluctant to discuss.  He NEVER discussed it in the interview room.  He only says something in passing when he does the walk thru, to cover himself IMO.  In other words, he made it up on the spot, and that's why the backwards/forwards contradiction exists, not some convoluted "he meant this when he said that" explanation. 

What makes infinitely more sense IMO is the idea that the punch to the nose happened much nearer to where the shot was fired and the shell casing and body were found.  THEN his statements make more sense, if you take into account he remembers the fight but is telling it slant. 

This is the SAME type of behavior he exhibits regarding the "sh*t, he's running" section.  GZ figures if he doesn't mention it, it didn't happen.  Then, when confronted with facts, like the recording or the actual terrain, GZ has trouble responding credibly, IMO. 

Did TM get on top of GZ? Yes.  Did the fight start the way GZ claims it did?  In my opinion, no. But this is a thread I started to ask how far the SPD got in their investigation.  I think Serino felt George was not honest, but he wasn't sure how to prove it regarding the events south of the T.  He wrote that he felt the injuries were "marginally" consistent with a life threatening situation and that GZ's story sounded "scripted." 

And that's where it ended until Dee Dee appears and a new investigation began.  What she heard is for another thread, but it seems to agree with the idea that the fight started closer to where the cell phone fell, or else the headphones were yanked out somewhere and what she heard was from the phone in TM's hand. 






Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #133 on: July 16, 2012, 03:48:28 PM »
Not to you and it probably never will. But you can refute my points ( with evidence - not speculation if you want)

What evidence do you have that GZ confronted and attacked Trayvon Martin?


I know its a tough one. You can just concede if you prefer.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #134 on: July 16, 2012, 05:01:34 PM »
What evidence do you have that GZ confronted and attacked Trayvon Martin?
The kid that was running away from the guy that spent the better part of five minutes stalking him in his car, then calling him a effin' punk and an a$$hole that was getting away as he got out of his truck to chase after him on foot ended up with a hole in the chest?

 

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