Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 56641 times)

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Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #135 on: July 16, 2012, 09:55:33 PM »
Oh, Willis? This is  because you like to selectively edit and carefully place ellipses here is the most important part of the quote from Dee Dee...Of course that is my IMO!

What you have:

Quote
Dee Dee: He say he lost him…breathin’ har’, you know. And I like, he goin’…so he say he lost him. And then a couple…and then he say he right by his ass…he ru’, he go’ keep ru’ ’til hi’ dad house.

What is really is:

Quote


    POLICE OFFICER: OK. So you could tell he was emotional, like somebody who was, like, in fear?

    GIRLFRIEND: Yeah. He said he lost

    POLICE OFFICER: OK. He was breathing hard? OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: He said he had lost him. He was breathing hard, and—and I told him, "Keep running."

    POLICE OFFICER: So Trayvon said he started walking because he thought he had lost the guy?

    GIRLFRIEND: Yeah.

    POLICE OFFICER: OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: I said, "Keep running."

    POLICE OFFICER: OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: He said he ain’t gonna run, 'cause he said he's right by his father’s house.

    POLICE OFFICER: OK.

    GIRLFRIEND: So, and in a couple minutes, he said the man’s following him again, he’s behind him. I said, "Run! You going to run?" He said he’s not going to run. I could know he’s not going to run, because he out of breath. Then, he told me [inaudible] the guy getting close to him. I told him, "Run!" And then I told him, "Keep running!" He not going to run. And then he said—I told him, "Why are you not running?" He said, "I’m not running," because he’s tired, because I know he’s tired



Do you work for NBC now?  They might be in the market for someone with your talents. 
  ;)

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #136 on: July 17, 2012, 08:46:13 AM »
Oh, Willis? This is  because you like to selectively edit and carefully place ellipses here is the most important part of the quote from Dee Dee...Of course that is my IMO!

What you have:

What is really is:

Do you work for NBC now?  They might be in the market for someone with your talents. 
  ;)

Clearly you and I are pasting from different transcripts any editing was not mine, i just googles one and selected a passage.  As for the statement that it was "A couple of minutes later," that's exactly the time frame of the "missing minutes" after the NE call ended and the 911 calls began. 

Seems to fit perfectly to me.  TM waited around John's backyard talking to DeeDee on the phone until GZ returned to the area with a working flashlight, IMO.  There is zero evidence that he went anywhere else except around the corner into  the dog walk area far enough that GZ's headlights could not shine on him - that's about two feet, BTW, and no farther south than his cell phone.  There is not a shred of proof that he went any farther south than that. 

Dee Dee wanted TM to run.  He was winded, and said he was GOING to walk, IMO and she f course has no way of knowing if he walked or not.  She does state he stayed on the phone until GZ came close to where TM was. 

I'm really not sure what you think I am selectively editing out here...  the accounts are basically the same, and as I said, I am using Dee Dee, who was NOT part of the SPD investigation to comment on what the SPD found before we heard about Dee Dee.  It's the move from the clubhouse are to the cut thru path that I am talking about mostly, since there is such an obvious timeline suggested by the NE call to measure GZ's statements against in that regard. 

No one knows what happened for certain behind the townhomes.  I think it's fairly clear by now that the evidence can be argued to be pro and con re: self defense.  But there is more than one person who heard the start of the incident - GZ and DeeDee. 

I'm unsure what you are alleging here.  Are you in the "TM went home, changed his pants, denied Chad his skittles, sat on the bench while Brandi who wasn't there observed him, then went back to find GZ without bothering to bring a baseball bat camp?" 


Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #137 on: July 17, 2012, 09:04:37 AM »
Does anyone think DeeDee will actually be called to testify.

I assume her statement alone, absent the opportunity to cross examine her,  is not admissable.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #138 on: July 17, 2012, 09:14:49 AM »
leftwig:  we may as well give up, and agree to disagree because I don't find your arguments convincing. 

Yes I've seen MMA fights.  This was not one.  Neither person knows martial arts that I know of.  In those fights I've seen, when one person staggers visibly the other DOES something to take advantage of the opening.  George has NOTHING to say about what Trayvon did during this time, only that he himself did a little doggie paddle motion or something with his open hands....  and that he MAY have been pushed, or he MAY have fallen.  I find this omission and prevarication significant, and indicative of yet another section of the evening GZ is reluctant to discuss.  He NEVER discussed it in the interview room.  He only says something in passing when he does the walk thru, to cover himself IMO.  In other words, he made it up on the spot, and that's why the backwards/forwards contradiction exists, not some convoluted "he meant this when he said that" explanation. 

What makes infinitely more sense IMO is the idea that the punch to the nose happened much nearer to where the shot was fired and the shell casing and body were found.  THEN his statements make more sense, if you take into account he remembers the fight but is telling it slant. 

This is the SAME type of behavior he exhibits regarding the "sh*t, he's running" section.  GZ figures if he doesn't mention it, it didn't happen.  Then, when confronted with facts, like the recording or the actual terrain, GZ has trouble responding credibly, IMO. 

Did TM get on top of GZ? Yes.  Did the fight start the way GZ claims it did?  In my opinion, no. But this is a thread I started to ask how far the SPD got in their investigation.  I think Serino felt George was not honest, but he wasn't sure how to prove it regarding the events south of the T.  He wrote that he felt the injuries were "marginally" consistent with a life threatening situation and that GZ's story sounded "scripted." 

And that's where it ended until Dee Dee appears and a new investigation began.  What she heard is for another thread, but it seems to agree with the idea that the fight started closer to where the cell phone fell, or else the headphones were yanked out somewhere and what she heard was from the phone in TM's hand.

We can agree that neither of us buys the others account. 

As for MMA, I was only referring to the first punch that lands.  When someone gets hit by a hard punch to the face, generally one of two things happens.  They get knocked out and fall straight down, or the punch knocks the back and off balance and they try to keep their feet to move away.  It seems apparent that GZ didn't get knocked out by the punch and one can get sent back by a punch and fall forward as they try to catch their balance.  Its not in any way unrealistic and unbelievable and you see it happen fairly often in MMA fights.

George might not have any idea what TM did for 30 seconds or more if the first punch was the one that broke his nose.  I've never had my nose broken, but have been hit in the nose by a baseball and I couldn't tell you what any of the other guys on the field were doing or where the ball went after I got hit. 

I personally think you are too hung up on someone remembering every detail of a conversation and the exact timeline of what occurred during that call.  Every witness who has given multiple statements has had inconsistencies.  The police couldn't even look at the dead body and accurately agree on what he was wearing.  The human mind just doesn't work the way you assume George's must work if he's to be telling the truth.

Dee Dee does little to contradict Z's account and other witness accounts of how the argument and  fight started at the T.  TM's cell phone is the farthest item south and if Dee Dee heard the phone land in the grass, it seems most likely to me she heard it land in the grass as TM ran north to the T.  How else would you figure she heard the phone hit the grass before the fight started?  Did TM drop the phone as he talked to Z bend over to pick it up only to drop it later as the fight was nearing its end? 

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #139 on: July 17, 2012, 09:20:10 AM »
Does anyone think DeeDee will actually be called to testify.

I assume her statement alone, absent the opportunity to cross examine her,  is not admissable.

What else do they have? AFAIK no discovery released so far provides evidence that contradicts GZ's story. Dee Dee's statement is, from what I understand, a significant part of what they are trying to build a case from. If they don't try to use her then...nada AFAIK. Well, Sabrina's testimony that it was Trayvon screaming for help. That would be easily countered with people on GZ's side that say it was GZ.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #140 on: July 17, 2012, 10:58:48 AM »
What else do they have? AFAIK no discovery released so far provides evidence that contradicts GZ's story. Dee Dee's statement is, from what I understand, a significant part of what they are trying to build a case from. If they don't try to use her then...nada AFAIK. Well, Sabrina's testimony that it was Trayvon screaming for help. That would be easily countered with people on GZ's side that say it was GZ.

I agree.  I think they absolutely have to use her as a witness.  I think that MOM will handle her very carefully because the jury is not going to like him going after a 16-17 yr old.  Particularly, since they are there because of the death of a 17 yr old.

I don't know how credible the jury will think she is.   There is the big issue of why she didn't come forward.  Why she had to be "tracked" down according to Crump.  I don't necessarily believe that happened in the way he has described it.  AFAIAC, her testimony is a benefit to both the prosecution and the defense.  It depends on how each other negates the the other.

I also think that Sybrina Fulton would carry more weight with jurors than RZ, Sr.  She is the grieving mother of a young man who was gunned down.  She trumps RZ, Sr because his son is still alive.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #141 on: July 17, 2012, 11:33:32 AM »
the the other.

I also think that Sybrina Fulton would carry more weight with jurors than RZ, Sr.  She is the grieving mother of a young man who was gunned down.  She trumps RZ, Sr because his son is still alive.

Let's not forget that Mr Martin had some difficulties identifying TM's voice.
I assume each side can produce gaggles presumably opinionated witnesses. If the witness has a reason to be biased I ( and probably most jurors) would tend to doubt that testimony, Its the witnesses who's opinions are contrary to their apparent interests that will pull weight.

I think John's testimony and the injuries are the best evidence that we can use to reach a conclusion about which actor was yelling for help.

Offline cboldt

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #142 on: July 17, 2012, 11:34:16 AM »
Defense's Motion to Disqualify Trial Judge is 'long on conjecture and irrelevant and inaccurate bombast...., short on actual fact, and devoid of legal merit'.

Ouch. Talk about a slap-down...

The state has demonstrated a remarkably keen mastery of bombast, itself.  On the first few pages of the motion, it sets up a straw man.  I presume the straw man will be successfully demolished.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #143 on: July 17, 2012, 11:44:58 AM »
I think John's testimony and the injuries are the best evidence that we can use to reach a conclusion about which actor was yelling for help.

I agree completely. Those two things support GZ's claim it was him calling for help. The guy on the bottom is the one getting beaten and shows signs of it. The guy on the top is the one that doesn't have any signs of being beaten. The guy on the bottom does the screaming.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #144 on: July 17, 2012, 02:03:30 PM »
I agree.  I think they absolutely have to use her as a witness.  I think that MOM will handle her very carefully because the jury is not going to like him going after a 16-17 yr old.  Particularly, since they are there because of the death of a 17 yr old.

I don't know how credible the jury will think she is.   There is the big issue of why she didn't come forward.  Why she had to be "tracked" down according to Crump.  I don't necessarily believe that happened in the way he has described it.  AFAIAC, her testimony is a benefit to both the prosecution and the defense.  It depends on how each other negates the the other.

I also think that Sybrina Fulton would carry more weight with jurors than RZ, Sr.  She is the grieving mother of a young man who was gunned down.  She trumps RZ, Sr because his son is still alive.

Please try to stay on topic when you can. DeeDee is subject worthy of her own thread IMO.  This thread is supposed to be about the SPD's initial investigatation, which didn't really include her, did it? 

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #145 on: July 17, 2012, 02:10:11 PM »
Please try to stay on topic when you can. DeeDee is subject worthy of her own thread IMO.  This thread is supposed to be about the SPD's initial investigatation, which didn't really include her, did it?

Why don't you troll someone else?  You are getting tiresome.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #146 on: July 17, 2012, 02:45:50 PM »
We can agree that neither of us buys the others account. 

As for MMA, I was only referring to the first punch that lands.  When someone gets hit by a hard punch to the face, generally one of two things happens.  They get knocked out and fall straight down, or the punch knocks the back and off balance and they try to keep their feet to move away.  It seems apparent that GZ didn't get knocked out by the punch and one can get sent back by a punch and fall forward as they try to catch their balance.  Its not in any way unrealistic and unbelievable and you see it happen fairly often in MMA fights.  eorge might not have any idea what TM did for 30 seconds or more if the first punch was the one that broke his nose.  I've never had my nose broken, but have been hit in the nose by a baseball and I couldn't tell you what any of the other guys on the field were doing or where the ball went after I got hit. 

Yes, people hit hard will stagger to keep their feet under them.  This is not unique to MMA.  They don't necessarily always stagger 40 feet in a straight line, however that seems odd to me that GZ claims he did this but has no recollection of it at any other time except when he suddenly realizes he needs to fill a hle in the tale he's been pushing.  Also, yes, if you were hit in the face with a baseball I doubt you remember what the third baseman did.  But if the CATCHER started hitting you, or pushed you all the way to the pitcher's mound you might recall that, I bet.  Or if you staggered to the mound and he followed you, spouting fould language, etc you might recall that he said something.  That's the distance - 45.5 feet IMO that GZ stumbled, more or less if his story is true.  The same distance a batter who charges a pitcher has to cover if the pitcher steps off the mound to meet him at the forward edge of the pitcher's mound. 

Quote
I personally think you are too hung up on someone remembering every detail of a conversation and the exact timeline of what occurred during that call.  Every witness who has given multiple statements has had inconsistencies.  The police couldn't even look at the dead body and accurately agree on what he was wearing.  The human mind just doesn't work the way you assume George's must work if he's to be telling the truth.

I've said my piece and more about the serious contradictions in GZ's account of how he moved from the clubhouse to the cut thru.  You ignore them.  I'm done with you.  I'm not "hung up" except in the sense that you and others can't resolve the conflicts and contradiction except to suggest that GZ has memory lapses that extend to creating competing false memories, IMO.  I'm not impressed.  Like I said, we are going to have to agree to disagree at some point. 

I've given long and serious thought to how GZ might be telling the truth, but it just doesn't add up to me because he contradicts his own tale and multiple accounts cannot all be true by definition. 



Quote

Dee Dee does little to contradict Z's account and other witness accounts of how the argument and  fight started at the T.  TM's cell phone is the farthest item south and if Dee Dee heard the phone land in the grass, it seems most likely to me she heard it land in the grass as TM ran north to the T.  How else would you figure she heard the phone hit the grass before the fight started?  Did TM drop the phone as he talked to Z bend over to pick it up only to drop it later as the fight was nearing its end?

Dee Dee isn't really part of this topic, but as I have said already in this thread, her story makes sense to me in that I think she tells what she heard well enough given her ability. If she were interested in pushing a false narrative I would imagine she'd come up with a lot more sinister things to say, don't you?  GZ is educated enough to include a verbal death threat in his account, which I find indicative of what Serino means when he called GZ's story "scripted."    That this death threat came BEFORE TM would have secured the other guy's weapon seems contrived, to me as well.  After, I might believe it, but before is just ludicrous to me.  According to GZ, TM never seems to have control of GZ's hands nor even attempt to control his hands.  Why would that be?  Look what GZ says he DID when he heard the death threat - he got his gun and shot the kid. 

But in regards to where the cell phone was found, I think what she heard was the disconnection of the earphones from the phone itself.  That doesn't mean either object hit the grass at that time, that's just her interpretation of the audio fidelity change that took place at that moment.  She claims she hears TM say "get off, get off" and I'm sure she can and will be challenged on that point if she is cross-examined, but she said it.  It's a damning statement for George, if the implication a jury believe is that he tried to illegally detain the teen.  Sanford PD did not have this part of the story, true or not, in their investigation. 

This thread is about how far they got, the SPD.  Please stay on topic.  If you want to discuss Dee Dee, start  a separate thread. 

The cell phone meant little to them, and in fact the earphones are a subject of no small controversy since they did not seem to be properly secured at the scene.  I am hoping that w13's iphone photo of the body shows the earphones position at the time he saw the body.  Of course this was after the shot, and GZ had manipulated the body in some fashion that we can't be sure of, but I doubt he folded up the earphones and put them in TM's pocket. 

I'm not sure what to think about the placement of the phone except that if GZ's story is correct, then TM seems to have had control of it the whole distance of the migration, or that GZ snatched it from TM and that was one source of the fight, who knows?  GZ may have been struck on the head by the cell phone, too - that's a possibility to consider.  Was the phone tested for blood/DNA?  That's not my area of expertise here....  If the phone was indeed in TM's hand, it begs the question of how premeditated his alleged "attack" was, and why someone who plans to hit someone stays on the phone with his girlfriend, etc. 

"A fight that moved south" as witnesses seem to hear also would include IMO some words exchanged while GZ is where his keys were found and TM where his tan bag was found, then GZ closing the distance to the bag, and the two in some kind of clinch up until where the body is found, which may be where the punch to the nose happened, and GZ feels he was being hit with some foreign object, not just a fist, and that object is the phone until he fires a shot and TM drops it.  Is that what happened?  I don't know but it fits the evidence and testimony better than GZ's account. 

If you are trying to win an argument, you need to stick to "how does the prosecution prove what GZ says is a lie and prove what they said happened is true beyond a reasonable doubt?"  But that's not the topic of this thread. 

Norm Wolfinger  may have felt the SPD didn't get that far.  Angela Corey feels her investigation did, IMO.  She's charged GZ with murder 2.  But again, that's another topic. 

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #147 on: July 18, 2012, 07:31:13 AM »
What else do they have? AFAIK no discovery released so far provides evidence that contradicts GZ's story. Dee Dee's statement is, from what I understand, a significant part of what they are trying to build a case from. If they don't try to use her then...nada AFAIK. Well, Sabrina's testimony that it was Trayvon screaming for help. That would be easily countered with people on GZ's side that say it was GZ.

They have GZ's contradictory statements the don't match the recording of his call.  GZ will sink his own ship, IMO.  Look what he's managed to do so far.... 

The state also claims, just today again in filing their rebuttal to the motion to recuse Judge Lester, that they have witnesses (plural) to a chase, which is a large part of their case.  keep in mind we have yet to see all of the discovery and that the prosecution has every reason to sheild their trial strategy for as long as possible.  It's not over till the fat lady sings. 

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #148 on: July 18, 2012, 07:39:50 AM »
They have GZ's contradictory statements the don't match the recording of his call.

They do if you have the time to properly investigate. As I've said before, take the walk through (or any statement to SPD) and after each sentence ask yourself "where does this fit in the non-emergency call?"

Quote
The state also claims, just today again in filing their rebuttal to the motion to recuse Judge Lester, that they have witnesses (plural) to a chase, which is a large part of their case.

I suspect these witnesses will simply be the ones who said the argument/scuffle moved from the north to the south - not necessarily a "chase" - just movement.

Quote
Keep in mind we have yet to see all of the discovery and that the prosecution has every reason to sheild their trial strategy for as long as possible.  It's not over till the fat lady sings.

I'm not sure if we do or not, but I did send GZLC a message asking if they could post updated numbers - a while back Mr. O'Mara said in an interview that his office had received 60% of the evidence and the public had received 10% -- of course, this was quite a while back. I asked if they could give those updated percents.

Offline cboldt

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #149 on: July 18, 2012, 08:10:58 AM »
I suspect these witnesses will simply be the ones who said the argument/scuffle moved from the north to the south - not necessarily a "chase" - just movement.

De la Riona's defense of the state's evidence, beyond the shooting, is largely equivocal.  Evidence of a chase, he says.  Well, who was chasing who?  De la Rionda didn't say there was evidence that Zimmerman was chasing Martin.  Why not?  I don't think DeeDee provides evidence that Zimmerman was chasing Martin, and none of the on-scene witnesses have any evidence to support that, so he just says "there was a chase" and lets the reader jump to a conclusion.  Similarly with "there was a struggle."  Ahem, Zimmerman says there was a struggle, too.  I don't see how this observation makes the state's case any stronger.  The issue isn't whether or not there was a struggle (just like the issue isn't whether or not Zimmerman shot Martin), so saying "there was a struggle," without more, provides no positive support for whatever the state's theory is.  The presence of inconsistencies is common - the state's witnesses and defense witnesses all have inconsistencies to some degree.  If De la Rionda could make an argument that the state's evidence for murder is strong, he would point to a specific inconsistency.  The only item he mentions that isn't equivocal or generic is Sybrina's and cousin's statements that Martin is the screamer.

I think de la Rionda is quite accurately summarizing the strength of the state's case in footnote 3.

 

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