Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 58606 times)

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Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #150 on: July 18, 2012, 08:30:08 AM »
They have GZ's contradictory statements the don't match the recording of his call.  GZ will sink his own ship, IMO.  Look what he's managed to do so far.... 

The state also claims, just today again in filing their rebuttal to the motion to recuse Judge Lester, that they have witnesses (plural) to a chase, which is a large part of their case.

They has  already, introduced two  witnesses to a chase. Witness 2 who testified at one point to witnessing a chase - then refuted her initial statement. The other is DeeDee.

Cheer up! Maybe the defense can introduce psychics as collaborating expert witnesses.
.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 08:33:07 AM by Lousy1 »

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #151 on: July 18, 2012, 09:24:53 AM »
Where does Z say he stumbled 45 feet after the punch?  He says he stumbled to the south and tried to get away and TM took him down.  His statement says he was trying to get to his feet while on the ground and TM would keep putting him down.  He said he moved to get off the sidewalk because he was getting his head slammed into it.  I don't know why you (Willis) have this impression that Z says he was hit, fell down and didn't move until he shot TM.  No one seems to be saying that but you.

In the baseball incident, I would know if someone was hitting me, I wouldn't know exactly where I was locate or how I moved as I was trying to get away.  I wouldn't be able to see very well and would be purely acting defensively until I recovered from the blow.  In my case, it took me about a minute or so before I got back to my feet and was able to see clearly and I didn't have someone assaulting me.   I'm really not sure what is so difficult to understand that once being hit, Z probably isn't going to give an exact blow by blow, foot by foot account of what happened.

I've stated fairly often that there are some apparent inconsistencies in Z's statements and exactly what occurred on the 911 call.  I think many of these can be explained with one very reasonable correction in the timeline.  I don't think TM circled his car at the clubhouse, but went around his car and that Z was either on hold with NEN at the time, or was just starting the conversation.  I think he was pulling out of the clubhouse parking and moving around the corner as the call started.  I think this can be corroborated once his full cell phone records become available which will show the time he placed the call versus when the NEN operator began talking, but we won't know that until those records are released.

Why would evidence on the ground be indicative of where words were exchanged?  I could see if all of the evidence had fallen at one location, it might indicate the two mutually throwing down there as they prepared for a fight.  Why would the tan 711 bag being found in its location be indicative of arguing at that location?  It seems to me that the bag could have come out just about anywhere and found its final resting place after blowing around.  I just see very little significance in the location of that bag.

We'll leave Dee Dee's statements to the Dee Dee discussion thread, but I will say that the SPD did never got an interview with her.  They attempted to access TM's cell phone, but were denied access by Tracy, I assume upon advice from his lawyer.  Had they been able to interview Dee Dee, I'm not sure they would have put much weight on her account and I am guessing here statement would have looked different had Crump and the media not gotten to her first. 

The only farther Corey got than the SPD was Dee Dee's interview and a bunch of research into Z's background, courtesy of the FBI.  The SPD was denied access to Dee Dee, so I can't really blame them there.   Given the lack of evidence Corey and the FBI have found in the past 2-3 months, I'd say the SPD was pretty well spot on in their investigation. 

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #152 on: July 18, 2012, 10:12:58 AM »
Where does Z say he stumbled 45 feet after the punch?
Interestingly, he never says it. The very closest he comes is during the re-enactment video. He says he was punched in the face. He then says he stumbled *forward*, "I fell down, he pushed me down, somehow he got on top of me". The detective then asks him where, and it's almost like you can see George go, "Sh*t, the body ended up over there". So he revises his story again to 'I was trying to push him away from me" as walks forward and waves his arms around a bit. He stops before he gets to the tree that is, btw, right in the middle of where they'd be if they were struggling.

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I don't know why you (Willis) have this impression that Z says he was hit, fell down and didn't move until he shot TM.
That's -exactly- the statement that George gave several times: punched and knocked backwards, into the grass, with the first punch, punchy-punch, head slammy-slam etc.

Nowhere does he mention any 30-40 foot stumble while trying to get Martin off of him. He doesn't need to give a foot-by-foot statement, but 'sucker-punched and knocked down with one blow' is not the same thing as 'punched, knocked off balance, stumbled five-plus body lengths while trying to get Martin off of me' are not the same thing. It leads me to think he's not being forthright as to how the fight started.

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I've stated fairly often that there are some apparent inconsistencies in Z's statements and exactly what occurred on the 911 call.  I think many of these can be explained with one very reasonable correction in the timeline.  I don't think TM circled his car at the clubhouse, but went around his car and that Z was either on hold with NEN at the time, or was just starting the conversation.  I think he was pulling out of the clubhouse parking and moving around the corner as the call started.  I think this can be corroborated once his full cell phone records become available which will show the time he placed the call versus when the NEN operator began talking, but we won't know that until those records are released.

I offered a very similar scenario earlier in this thread: George basically follows Martin the entire way on to TTL.
Quote from: dragonash
George sees Martin at 1460, he slows down but drives past, decides that Martin is out of place. He parks at the Clubhouse, dials NEN. As he's waiting to get through, Martin comes back into view just as the dispatcher comes on; George sees Martin walking past his car and turning right. George gives the address for the Clubhouse, then pulls out of the Clubhouse and follows behind Martin in his car. He finally stops at the side of the road on TTL when Martin, instead of continuing south on TTL, goes straight ahead up the cut-through.

George would be driving at Martin's walking speed, so it would take longer than the 20-30 seconds if he was just driving, so it might explain some of the car sounds that some have noticed in the recording. It would explain why George first gives the Clubhouse address, then later on gives directions to past the Clubhouse. Gives Martin plenty of time to 'circle George's car' and run up the cut-through and turn towards the back entrance.


There's probably -just- enough time for Martin to walk from the Clubhouse to the cut-through in the two-odd minutes or so of the call, maybe with a 'circling the car' thrown in, especially if Martin starts running from very close to George's truck.

Thing is, I can't see how the differences beween this version and the version that George gives can just be handwaved away as 'due to stress' or whatever. I assume George is telling a false version purpose. Perhaps he (wrongly) assumes that he would be legally responsible in some fashion for the shooting if he was 'following' Martin?

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #153 on: July 18, 2012, 11:03:22 AM »
I think you are confusing what Z actually says with your interpretation of what he says.  You believe that when he ways he was punched and fell back into the grass that he fell straight back and down.  Again, he's not watching this happen, its happening to him.  Its dark, its raining and he just got his nose broken.  No one in that situation is going to be able to say exactly how he got to a certain point.  He knows he got hit, he knows he went to the ground, he knows TM ends up on top.  He's got the injuries to corroborate the story and I don't see any evidence or witness statements that contradict his story of what happened from the first punch until he shot TM.

Why would he mention stumbling 30-40 feet?  The only people I see suggesting this narrative are those that seem to ignore that wrestling on the ground with Z trying to get up for 60 seconds or better would occur in the same area with no movement.  No one is saying Z stumbled 30'-40' before TM got on top of him and then they barely moved from that point on. 

Why would you assume TM walked past Z's vehicle at the clubhouse and continued to walk down TTL?  Dee Dee mentions TM running into the complex or at least some form of running prior to him noticing Z.  I'd suggest that this first bit of running she details might well be him seeing Z sitting at the clubhouse, then running to lose him, not running to get under the mail thingy as Dee Dee describes.   If he ran to the T, it would take him maybe 20-30 seconds depending on how hard he was busting tail.  This would fit Z's description of him coming back from around that corner, then to circle his vehicle and check him out.

I think this fits better than Z following TM down TTL.  If Z was only following TM all this time, how could TM know in the dark that some crazy white guy was on the phone following him?  If he identified that Z was white, crazy and on the phone as he passed the clubhouse, it would be a reason for him running once he rounded the corner onto TTL.  Z only mentions TM running once after spotting him walking in the yard and looking at all the houses, while Dee Dee has him running multiple times (into the complex to the mail thingy and then away from Z's parked car and to his father's house).  I think the most likely explanation for this would have TM running after he walked by Z's car at the clubhouse, where George couldn't see him due to the bushes blocking his view.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #154 on: July 18, 2012, 11:35:40 AM »
GZ marked a postion on the map that resolve his conflicting accounts and explains the inconsistencies, IMO.  That position is at the first corner of TTL, likely facing the mailboxes. 

The timing of the NE call works there and the repeated statements that GZ was "by the clubhouse" (just not at the parking lot) finally make sense if you listen to the interview where he is played the NE call recording. 

He struck this position out and amended it to the final parking space jsut before he told the "doubled back/circled the car/ hand in waistband" story for the first time.   And, notably GZ always leaves out the running unless prompted to speak about it, and then he is very quiet or defensive.  In GZ's account TM would never have run, and if the call had not been recorded SPD would not know he did. 

Forgetting thing around a trauma is normal.  Making up competing false accounts is not.  IMO GZ's statements to police are not random inconsistencies, they are a clear pattern of obfuscation, false narratives and deliberatew omissions that fit a pattern to show clearly that he has told the story of how hew moved from the clubhouse to the T in a manner that is not so; and can be proven in court.  After the NE call ends, the pattern continues IMO but the proof is more circumstantial. 

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #155 on: July 18, 2012, 12:08:45 PM »
Making up competing false accounts is not.

You sure about that? https://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

A traumatic event, compounded by ADHD... no way your brain could make up some details that didn't happen? My reason for pointing to that source is to show how feeble the brain is. Simply telling someone something happened can cause false memories. With that being true, why couldn't it occur in highly traumatic situations with or without other psychological disorders compounding it?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 12:15:44 PM by AJ »

Offline Mojo56

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #156 on: July 18, 2012, 12:57:17 PM »
re: remembering what happened...I recently was involved in a fight at my bar & grill. 3 guys came in and started an altercation with one of my customers. I came from behind the bar to break it up and the next thing I know I'm involved in a one on one fight with one of the instigators. The fight started at the midpoint of the bar. The next thing I remember is the guy has me in a headlock and we're over the pool table which is 30 feet away. We're actually on the opposite side of the pool table which runs perpendicular to the bar. We traversed 30+ feet and made our way around a pool table and I have ZERO memory of how this happened. I can fully understand how GZ might not be able to remember a lot of what happened after he got punched.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #157 on: July 18, 2012, 01:02:54 PM »
re: remembering what happened...I recently was involved in a fight at my bar & grill. 3 guys came in and started an altercation with one of my customers. I came from behind the bar to break it up and the next thing I know I'm involved in a one on one fight with one of the instigators. The fight started at the midpoint of the bar. The next thing I remember is the guy has me in a headlock and we're over the pool table which is 30 feet away. We're actually on the opposite side of the pool table which runs perpendicular to the bar. We traversed 30+ feet and made our way around a pool table and I have ZERO memory of how this happened. I can fully understand how GZ might not be able to remember a lot of what happened after he got punched.

I have posted of a similar personal experience. Save your breath/fingers  it doesn't fit some peoples fantasy narrative.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #158 on: July 18, 2012, 01:04:28 PM »
re: remembering what happened...I recently was involved in a fight at my bar & grill. 3 guys came in and started an altercation with one of my customers. I came from behind the bar to break it up and the next thing I know I'm involved in a one on one fight with one of the instigators. The fight started at the midpoint of the bar. The next thing I remember is the guy has me in a headlock and we're over the pool table which is 30 feet away. We're actually on the opposite side of the pool table which runs perpendicular to the bar. We traversed 30+ feet and made our way around a pool table and I have ZERO memory of how this happened. I can fully understand how GZ might not be able to remember a lot of what happened after he got punched.

Yes but when asked later did you leave out the migration of the fight, or assume your opponent did nothing of consequence while you moved over there? 

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #159 on: July 18, 2012, 01:33:30 PM »
GZ marked a postion on the map that resolve his conflicting accounts and explains the inconsistencies, IMO.  That position is at the first corner of TTL, likely facing the mailboxes. 

The timing of the NE call works there and the repeated statements that GZ was "by the clubhouse" (just not at the parking lot) finally make sense if you listen to the interview where he is played the NE call recording. 

He struck this position out and amended it to the final parking space jsut before he told the "doubled back/circled the car/ hand in waistband" story for the first time.   And, notably GZ always leaves out the running unless prompted to speak about it, and then he is very quiet or defensive.  In GZ's account TM would never have run, and if the call had not been recorded SPD would not know he did. 

Forgetting thing around a trauma is normal.  Making up competing false accounts is not.  IMO GZ's statements to police are not random inconsistencies, they are a clear pattern of obfuscation, false narratives and deliberatew omissions that fit a pattern to show clearly that he has told the story of how hew moved from the clubhouse to the T in a manner that is not so; and can be proven in court.  After the NE call ends, the pattern continues IMO but the proof is more circumstantial.

Um, GZ's first account does have TM approaching him with his hand in his waistband and TM running.  His NEN call is his first account and probably most accurate of all he's given though some statements are vague enough on that call that some details need filled in.  He never mentions being parked at the clubhouse during his NEN call which tells me that by the time he gets around to talking about where he is, he's already moved from that location. 

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #160 on: July 18, 2012, 01:43:56 PM »
If your asking me, I was at the crime site when first queried, so all I did was point out where it started  and where it ended and a brief synopsis. while holding a blood soaked towel to my face. Both points were obvious. After the 2-3 minute interview A friend drove he to the ER for stitches.

When I latter gave statements in other venues I don't know if I tried to fill in the  detail of the movement from pt a to pt b or not. Because of the crime scene interview I was cognizant of the distance traveled. Witnesses said I was holding a wrist of the bad guyin one hand and swinging without great effect with the other hand. To me the important points were the initial hit and the actions that occurred at the terminal point. I remember those details to this day.

I don't remember being asked about how we got to point B after I explained standing up and grabbing the assailant at point A.
If asked what I probably would just say I'm not sure.

Had I collapsed at point B it would be because of the strike I had  received at point A. It is quite conceivable that my narrative would have been.
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Some stranger struck, without warning or any apparent reason  me in my face, with a  bottle which knocked me senseless. When I recovered my senses he was cutting me with the broken bottle.

Fortunately ( you don't have to share this opinion) I was not knocked senseless.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #161 on: July 18, 2012, 01:55:42 PM »
You sure about that? https://faculty.washington.edu/eloftus/Articles/sciam.htm

A traumatic event, compounded by ADHD... no way your brain could make up some details that didn't happen? My reason for pointing to that source is to show how feeble the brain is. Simply telling someone something happened can cause false memories. With that being true, why couldn't it occur in highly traumatic situations with or without other psychological disorders compounding it?

Cited article is completely off-topic, and refers to IMPLANTED false memories.  Not ones self-genereated that fit a poorly executed alibi for a crime.

from the article cited:

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In the lost-in-the-mall study, implantation of false memory occurred when another person, usually a family member, claimed that the incident happened.

No one TOLD George that he contacted with dispatch while parked at the clubhouse's north facade.  No one told George that he should move his car to where he could see the teen.  No one told George that he should mark a spot on the map where he "wasn't."  No one told George to omit the idea that Trayvon ran from his sight, either. No one told George that Martin doubled back and circled his car, hand in waistband and then told him to insist later that this  event occurred by the clubhouse, in total contradiction to his earlier story of being approached while parked near the cut thru.  IMO George makes this sh*t up as he goes, and it's no wonder it comes out inconsistent and contradictory.  No one told George that the primary reason he got out of his car was to find a street sign, or go to RVC to look up a house number he never reported.  These (IMO) false memories were not implanted by others.  IMO they are the acts of a man lying to investigators and getting himself caught on tape in some of those lies, and reverting to prevarication, silence and "I don't remember" when confronted.   

No one told George to recall falling backwards several times but then to "re-enact" stumbling forward 24 feet when the body was 45 feet away IMO.  No one told GZ to tell Mark Osterman he was punched and fell backwards onto his arse first and then onto his back, if MO is indeed recalling the tale correctly when he spoke to FDLE.  These are not implanted false memories from childhood, told him by a relative.  It makes me sick to my stomach to think about what this article about traumatic childhood events that are denied by relatives SHOULD be in reference to, and let's not go there in a thread about SPD's investigation. 

IMO someone DID tell him about how a verbal death threat looks good at a SYG hearing, even though it's nonsensical to think someone would issue one before gaining control of his opponent's weapon.  Someone DID tell him that it looks bad if he followed the kid.  Someone did tell him that he needed to be in fear for his life in order to claim self defense.  And Chis Serino said he felt GZ's story sounded "scripted."  Mark Osterman admitted to FDLE that he was on the scene that night and spoke to cops and to GZ before GZ was transported away.  He claims the conversations were not "in depth," but it's a tacit admission that a conversation of some type did take place.  That's a suspicious activity IMO if I ever read about one. Prosecutors know that, but the SPD didn't seem to know that, or include that in any report we have seen.  SPD didn't know Mark Osterman was with Shellie around that time or that GZ's car was moved, either which is tantamount to interfering with a police investigation IMO if it came at the advice of a former deputy who should know better. 

I respectfully suggest that you open up your mind, if you have to use a crowbar.  This guy is unclean IMO.  His story stinks and no one here can explain the contradictions, much less George himself.  Where was he when he connected to a human, Sean the recorded dispatcher?  He seems to claim two places - at the cut thru and at the clubhouse parking lot.  Which "memory" lines up with the recorded call, because IMO neither one does.  IMO the recorded call lines up with the position he marked on a map at the first bend in TTL, where he would have been observing TM by the mail-shed-thing, as Dee Dee calls it.  And this position resolves inconsistencies and seeming contradictions as well.  It's just not the story GZ "recalls," in any of the multiple versions he's told SPD investigators. 

There are none so blind as those who will not see. 





Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #162 on: July 18, 2012, 02:01:38 PM »
In a somewhat related point.

What was the name of the group who performed 'when the wall comes tumbling down?'

Offline 11Rand

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #163 on: July 18, 2012, 02:26:56 PM »
I assume George is telling a false version purpose. Perhaps he (wrongly) assumes that he would be legally responsible in some fashion for the shooting if he was 'following' Martin?

Whether talking about following in general or specifically following after he got out of his car, I don't think that's it. In his first five accounts (written statement, 2 accounts to Singleton, Re-enactment, and Voice Stress Analysis), GZ says he got out of his car to try and give the dispatcher more specific information as to location (not knowing the name of Twin Trees, looking for a street sign and ideally an address to go with it was desired). But in three of the accounts (written, 1st Singleton account, and VSA (albeit as part of a follow up question by the Investigator), GZ does say he also was trying to verify the direction TM was headed, to tell the dispatcher. GZ’s a little more vague about this in the 2nd Singleton account, and doesn’t really get into it in the re-enactment. *In the VSA, see question/answer regarding “following” at 6:58:25 PM. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY
« Last Edit: July 18, 2012, 02:29:29 PM by 11Rand »

Offline 11Rand

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #164 on: July 18, 2012, 02:40:42 PM »
I don't think TM circled his car at the clubhouse, but went around his car and that Z was either on hold with NEN at the time, or was just starting the conversation.  I think he was pulling out of the clubhouse parking and moving around the corner as the call started.  I think this can be corroborated once his full cell phone records become available which will show the time he placed the call versus when the NEN operator began talking

When I first watched the re-enactment and VSA, I erroneously thought GZ was saying he was talking to the dispatcher as TM passed him at the clubhouse. In watching both again, I think what he actually said is consistent with or at least doesn’t contradict his written statement, and 2 accounts to Singleton. (Although, I’m still not sure about the underlined parts. Is he perhaps recalling the which way/direction questions after TM passed his car near the cut-through, and plugging them in here?).

VSA: So I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. I called the non-emergency line. As I was on the phone with the non-emergency line, he walked past my car, and I lost visual contact of him. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see or at least give him a direction of where he was headed. I said yes, so I pulled out [gestures with hand indicating turn right, down Twin Trees] and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. . . . When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address.

Re-Enactment: I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. [Driver/Investigator: He caught up to you up here?] Yes, I called the non-emergency line and when I got through -- [seemingly reminding driver where to stop, GZ gestures with hand and says:] I parked at the clubhouse -- and they asked me where I was, and I told them the clubhouse and I think I gave them the address to the clubhouse. [Driver pulls into spot at clubhouse]. This is where I just stopped to call, to call, and then he walked past me. And he kept looking at my car. And still looking around at the houses and stuff. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] So then dispatcher said where did he go, what direction did he go in, and I said I don't know. I lost -- cause he cut down here and made a right, I guess it's Twin Trees Lane, he made a right in there -- and they said what direction did he go in and I said I don't know, I can't see him. And they said can you get to somewhere you can see him, and I said yeah I can. So I backed out. [Driver backs out, turns right on TTL, goes left around bend].

Regarding GZ’s cell phone records, I agree these should help a lot to clarify the timeline. If GZ was on hold for a few minutes, then TM would’ve had time to pass GZ while on hold at the clubhouse and walk ahead to the cut-through before GZ got there.

 

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