Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 42026 times)

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Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #30 on: July 08, 2012, 04:14:51 PM »
Sanford PD got far enough to conclude that GZ had major contradictions and inconsistencies in his statements.  If I need to be politically correct about what they felt about his credibility, I suppose I would say he is "credibility-challenged."  And Sanford PD seemed to agree. 

Leaving his vehicle to "find a street sign" is not against the law, it just flies in the face of the logic suggested by the recorded call, where he says "Sh*t, he's running" and then three seconds later gets out of his car, as he admits in questioning, and also admits on the recording himself that he is following the teen.  GZ sticks to this story even when presented the recording, and that only "proves" he sticks to his story.  If he insists that was the idea in his head, then it's difficult to prove it wasn't.  But it seems clear the investigators felt his credibility was low in that regard, because they all but laughs in his face and asked him if he wanted to change his statement. 

He also claimed that he did not run or jog after the teen, and that the wind blowing is why his phone made the sounds we've all heard.  Who here wants to go on record as saying this is a credible explanation?  Because I don't find it credible.  Common sense has to enter into this discussion at some point. At 7fps he would cover the distance from where he claims he parked to the sidewalk T intersection.  SPD themselves try to work out the timing of his foray from his car to(wards) RVC.  GZ's account comes up wanting in their eyes. 

These of course are only a few of the things that SPD seems to have had difficulty with in believing GZ's story.  There are others. 

I'm not "advancing a personal theory of guilt."  I'm saying in plain language that SPD thought he was not credible in many areas of his statements.  They also clearly had difficulty proving he lied about the fist fight and had a weak case for manslaughter at the time of being relieved of the case by the special prosecutor, who with her investigators came to a different conclusion.  Did SPD miss something?  That's what I started this thread to examine. 

Offline RickyJim

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #31 on: July 08, 2012, 05:33:31 PM »
The SPD could have avoided the charge that they were being two faced, Z was innocent to the public and guilty to the prosecutors, if they just kept their mouths publicly shut.  They could have let Wolfinger's office do all the talking.  What did they gain by commenting to the press on what their investigation showed?

Offline RWright

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #32 on: July 08, 2012, 06:51:35 PM »
Hi Willis.


Leaving his vehicle to "find a street sign" is not against the law, it just flies in the face of the logic suggested by the recorded call, where he says "Sh*t, he's running" and then three seconds later gets out of his car, as he admits in questioning, and also admits on the recording himself that he is following the teen.  GZ sticks to this story even when presented the recording, and that only "proves" he sticks to his story. 

It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.  Not sure it matters here, but let's have accurate details where we can.  During the phone call, before anyone got shot, it's clear George cannot come up with the name of the street (Twin Trails).  He even starts the conversation saying "the best I can give you" is bla bla Retreat View Circle.  During the walk-through he explains that since he couldn't recall the street name, he walked down the sidewalk to Retreat View... because he knew the name of that street and it was a very short walk from where he was.  It makes more sense than going back to the car and driving. 

That's how I understand it, and it seems to line up nicely with George's statements if you approach them logically.  Yes, he got out and followed Trayvon.  He lost him.  He needed an address for the dispatcher.  He walked over to Retreat View Circle.  Logical and rational, imo.

He also claimed that he did not run or jog after the teen, and that the wind blowing is why his phone made the sounds we've all heard.  Who here wants to go on record as saying this is a credible explanation?  Because I don't find it credible. 

I felt the exact same: He was clearly running by the sound of the wind.  But now I'm fairly certain that's wrong.  Diwataman has challenged anyone who wants to try to duplicate that sound by running.  He's tried; I've tried.  You cannot do it.  However, it's simple to duplicate if you have a breeze to walk into.  Interestingly, if you turn and walk with the breeze the wind noise stops.  This seems to validate George turning back to his truck during the phone call. 

Further, listen carefully to George's words and tone during the wind noises part of the call.  He is a little stressed, no longer in the comfy warmth of a vehicle, out in the elements, but it's very hard to speak as he is while running.  In fact, I cannot do it with any pace.  Maybe he was jogging into the wind (like walking this could duplicate the wind sounds), maybe he was walking briskly (my guess).  So put me on the record not only thinking walking claims are credible, but likely and with fair certainty he was not running. 

I'm not advancing a personal theory of innocence.  I have issues with what I just explained and the timeline.  I do not understand why they met where they did when they did when the both had plenty of time to be some place safer, safer places they were both allegedly trying to get to.

Offline SuzieTampa

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #33 on: July 08, 2012, 08:00:38 PM »
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2012-07-07/news/os-george-zimmerman-sanford-police-lied-20120707_1_special-prosecutor-angela-corey-chief-bill-lee-arrest-warrant
Rene Stutzman writes today: "While publicly saying one thing ó that they did not have enough evidence to arrest George Zimmerman ó Sanford police did essentially the opposite: filing paperwork saying they had enough to charge him with manslaughter."

I wish her second paragraph had been the response from Lee: "His agency recommended the manslaughter charge on paper, the statement said, because without it, prosecutors would not have taken over the investigation."

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2012, 09:15:42 PM »
Zimmerman doesn't exit his vehicle until the dispatcher asks "which way is he running", upon which Z exits a few seconds later.  My guess would be that was the reason he exited the vehicle right at that time, however he has tried several times unsuccessfully to give his exact location and it was one thing the dispatcher continued to ask.  I'd also guess that he had looked for a street sign around where he was parked and couldn't see one, so it probably was something in his mind to try and find a sign when he could.  Once Martin ran, he had that opportunity.  I do think his exiting his vehicle had a dual purpose both of which were to answer questions the dispatcher had asked, "what address are you parked at" and "which way did he run".  Does it really matter which one he chooses to use as the reason?

As for the "running sound", the noise of the wind occurs almost immediately after the car door closes.  Even if he did run, he wouldn't have been at a full sprint immediately, so the initial noise is most certainly the wind.  Also, Z clearly keeps the phone to his ear talking to the dispatcher, which isn't something someone would do in taking off to run after someone.  Also, the wind gusts were over 20 mph that day coming from the E/NE which would mean the wind was in his face as he walked from his vehicle towards the T meaning the wind sound would be headed right into his phone.  I'm also quite certain 20 mph is much faster than the 5'7", 205 pound man in jeans and boots was going to run, so in my opinion one would need more than wind noise in the phone to reach the conclusion that Z was running at this point.

I also don't see an issue with his story of going to RVC to get an address.  I don't think he said he walked continuously from his vehicle to RVC.  IT sounds like on the call he is banging on something or tapping metal to metal.  I think he has stated that he had a flashlight that wasn't working, so while I don't think its completely clear from his interviews/walk through on the timing of where he was and for how long, I think its quite reasonable to think he saw TM run up the T, so when he got to the T stayed there for some time trying to get his flashlight to work and to see if he could catch a glimpse of the person that ran.  Since he never gave an address to the dispatcher, I think its also reasonable to assume that he didn't make it to RVC while on the phone.  Near the end of the NEN call, the dispatcher sets a meeting place of the mailboxes which aren't that near his location and Z first says OK, but then says can you just have them call me and I'll give them my location.  Since he hasn't given an address yet, I again think its reasonable that this is where he thinls of going to RVC to get the address.  IF he were already close to RVC, he probably would have said gimme a second and I'll have an address for you ,but if hes still hanging out around the T at this point, its probably far enough away to just say have them call me when they get here.

I'll agree that these pieces of his statement are reasonably questioned, but I also think there are reasonable answers that can make them fit the timeline.  Also realize that Z wasn't sitting there rehashing this after studying his NEN call.  He was going over all these from recollection, then when being confronted directly on questioning from police.  Obviously the prosecution is going to attack the things you mention, but now that he has had time to rehash all of the NEN call and thought about where they fit within the actions he recalls that night, his testimony is likely to be much tighter than what we see from the parsing of the many statements he's given to date. 

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #35 on: July 08, 2012, 09:43:41 PM »
Zimmerman doesn't exit his vehicle until the dispatcher asks "which way is he running", upon which Z exits a few seconds later.  My guess would be that was the reason he exited the vehicle right at that time, however he has tried several times unsuccessfully to give his exact location and it was one thing the dispatcher continued to ask.  I'd also guess that he had looked for a street sign around where he was parked and couldn't see one, so it probably was something in his mind to try and find a sign when he could.  Once Martin ran, he had that opportunity.  I do think his exiting his vehicle had a dual purpose both of which were to answer questions the dispatcher had asked, "what address are you parked at" and "which way did he run".  Does it really matter which one he chooses to use as the reason?

As for the "running sound", the noise of the wind occurs almost immediately after the car door closes.  Even if he did run, he wouldn't have been at a full sprint immediately, so the initial noise is most certainly the wind.  Also, Z clearly keeps the phone to his ear talking to the dispatcher, which isn't something someone would do in taking off to run after someone.  Also, the wind gusts were over 20 mph that day coming from the E/NE which would mean the wind was in his face as he walked from his vehicle towards the T meaning the wind sound would be headed right into his phone.  I'm also quite certain 20 mph is much faster than the 5'7", 205 pound man in jeans and boots was going to run, so in my opinion one would need more than wind noise in the phone to reach the conclusion that Z was running at this point.

I also don't see an issue with his story of going to RVC to get an address.  I don't think he said he walked continuously from his vehicle to RVC.  IT sounds like on the call he is banging on something or tapping metal to metal.  I think he has stated that he had a flashlight that wasn't working, so while I don't think its completely clear from his interviews/walk through on the timing of where he was and for how long, I think its quite reasonable to think he saw TM run up the T, so when he got to the T stayed there for some time trying to get his flashlight to work and to see if he could catch a glimpse of the person that ran.  Since he never gave an address to the dispatcher, I think its also reasonable to assume that he didn't make it to RVC while on the phone.  Near the end of the NEN call, the dispatcher sets a meeting place of the mailboxes which aren't that near his location and Z first says OK, but then says can you just have them call me and I'll give them my location.  Since he hasn't given an address yet, I again think its reasonable that this is where he thinls of going to RVC to get the address.  IF he were already close to RVC, he probably would have said gimme a second and I'll have an address for you ,but if hes still hanging out around the T at this point, its probably far enough away to just say have them call me when they get here.

I'll agree that these pieces of his statement are reasonably questioned, but I also think there are reasonable answers that can make them fit the timeline.  Also realize that Z wasn't sitting there rehashing this after studying his NEN call.  He was going over all these from recollection, then when being confronted directly on questioning from police.  Obviously the prosecution is going to attack the things you mention, but now that he has had time to rehash all of the NEN call and thought about where they fit within the actions he recalls that night, his testimony is likely to be much tighter than what we see from the parsing of the many statements he's given to date.


First Zimmerman gets out of his truck and he and the dispatcher have the whole "Are you following him?", "We don't need for you to do that" exchange, and then he asks if Zimmerman wants the responding officer to meet with him, and only after getting an incomprehensible set of directions from Zimmerman does the dispatcher ask in front of which address was he parked, so Zimmerman did not get out of the truck to find some address about which he had not yet been asked.

The sounds of Zimmerman beginning the process of exiting his truck begin too soon to be in response to the dispatcher asking which way Martin was running, so he had already decided to do so in response to some other stimulus.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #36 on: July 08, 2012, 09:52:54 PM »
I'll agree that these pieces of his statement are reasonably questioned, but I also think there are reasonable answers that can make them fit the timeline.  Also realize that Z wasn't sitting there rehashing this after studying his NEN call.  He was going over all these from recollection, then when being confronted directly on questioning from police.  Obviously the prosecution is going to attack the things you mention, but now that he has had time to rehash all of the NEN call and thought about where they fit within the actions he recalls that night, his testimony is likely to be much tighter than what we see from the parsing of the many statements he's given to date.

Salient point  :D

Offline 11Rand

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #37 on: July 08, 2012, 10:46:27 PM »
The sounds of Zimmerman beginning the process of exiting his truck begin too soon to be in response to the dispatcher asking which way Martin was running, so he had already decided to do so in response to some other stimulus.

GZ starts to get out right after the dispatcher says it (you then hear the door handle and the open door bell). To be sure, GZ didn't need much of a prompt because it was only a split second after but technically it was still after. While I believe GZ got out of his vehicle to give the operator information about the specific direction in which TM was running, I agree his desire to find a specific address (RVC) would relate to the end of the NEN call. As you said, GZ had difficulty during the call, more than once actually, verifying where he was (evidently he didnít know the street name: Twin Trees).

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2012, 01:48:25 AM »
Hi Willis.

It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.  Not sure it matters here, but let's have accurate details where we can. 


It's thee seconds until he OPENS the door,signaling his intent to exit the vehicle for whatever reason. Deliberately not mentioning the running teen when describing the reason for getting out of the car seems an act that has meaning to me, so whatever his logic regarding street signs seems secondary to me.  Yes I've always been aware of the logic suggested there but it's only recently that we've seen the whole street sign narrative was the SOLE reason given in the walk thru for exiting the car and that it was coupled with a story about TM doubling back and circling the car, an action that he seemingly contradicts himself regarding when played the recording of his call to dispatch. 

As for the idea thT the wind noise stops when GZ starts to return to(wards) his car it needs to be noted that he claims he's at RVC by then and in order for him to travel that distance in that tine he would have to run very fast to do so, wheras for him to jog to the T he would make it in the right time.  Check toolbox earth yourself. His story is not credible here IMO and the laws of physics seem to be on my side here as well.

"  Yes, he got out and followed Trayvon.  "

But he never offers this.    That's what seems fishy to me.

"he walked over to RVC"

I disagree - he traveld at aprox 7fps to what seems likely to have been at the T and h esays when there he couldn't.see the teen, and then IMO continued to RVC at a different pace,

"  Diwataman has challenged anyone who wants to try to duplicate that sound by running.  He's tried; I've tried.  You cannot do it."

No, YOU did not do it, nor do you know what make and model phone he had, or how he held the phone.  I remain unconvinced by this speculation.

  "However, it's simple to duplicate if you have a breeze to walk into."

"This seems to validate George turning back to his truck during the phone call."

Except of course for the timing of the "missing minutes."
 :)
"So put me on the record not only thinking walking claims are credible, but likely and with fair certainty he was not running.  "

So noted, but he darn sure didnt walk to RVC in the time he suggests.  Not possible given his legs. 

"I'm not advancing a personal theory of innocence.  I have issues with what I just explained and the timeline."

Also noted.

Google earth path tool is what I meant to tyPe above- posting from a cell phone here.  Please excuse the typos

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2012, 03:26:39 AM »
Deliberately not mentioning the running teen when describing the reason for getting out of the car  seems an act that has meaning to me, so whatever his logic regarding street signs seems secondary to me
Quote
1:27 Dispatcher: "Just let me know if he does anything okay?"
1:28 Zimmerman: "Just get an officer over here."
1:29 Dispatcher: "Yeah, we got them on the way. Just let me know if this guy does anything else."
1:34 Zimmerman: "Mkay." (seems distracted)
... (Zimmerman describing how to get to his location)
2:04 Zimmerman: "... Uh yeah, you go straight in, dont turn and make a left -- sh*t he's running."
2:06 Dispatcher: "He's running? Which way is he running?"

How does the logic work in your theory here? He doesn't recall following Mr. Martin, and he was asked to keep the dispatcher abreast of what was happening... so that must be the primary reason for getting out of the vehicle? Whether you believe him or not I think you're borderline absurd with this assertion. I don't know many people who forget the primary reason they do something when they do it for multiple reasons.


Quote
Yes I've always been aware of the logic suggested there but it's only recently that we've seen the whole street sign narrative

We've known about this since late March, if not earlier. I don't like linking to this source, but it's a source none the less: http://globalgrind.com/news/george-zimmerman-father-speaks-trayvon-martin-case-video

Quote
As for the idea thT the wind noise stops when GZ starts to return to(wards) his car it needs to be noted that he claims he's at RVC by then and in order for him to travel that distance in that tine he would have to run very fast to do so, wheras for him to jog to the T he would make it in the right time.  Check toolbox earth yourself. His story is not credible here IMO and the laws of physics seem to be on my side here as well.

What speed measurements are you using? The accepted 5km/hr average walking speed? Just wanting to verify because you said 7fps which is nearly twice the accepted average walking speed in fps - which is too slow for jogging, it would be more of a "walking fast" speed. Try this one, from the time that the wind stops (2:41 - indicating he has turned) until you hear him tapping on his flash light trying to get it to turn on (2:46, my assumption - three clicking sounds and it matches with Mr. Zimmerman saying his flashlight was dead, when a flashlight is dead most people bang on it a few times) how far could he have gone? If you're using the 5km/hr speed that is widely accepted then he could've traveled 22.785 feet, which would've put him near the west corner of the building if he were heading west and started at the curb on the east side. What laws of physics are you applying and how?

You're paying too much attention to the words and not enough attention to the background noises in the non-emergency call. The background noises tell a story of their own, if you allow them to. Another example I could point out is the whole "he was at the clubhouse when he was circled" theory. You can hear the vehicle being put into drive. You can hear the turn signal when he makes the right hand turn (assumed, I don't think he would've turned it on for the dogleg but not the optional direction change - you hear it for one or the other). You can hear the vehicle being put into park - which is right around the time when Mr. Martin would've come to circle him based on the information in the call.

« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 03:33:42 AM by AJ »

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2012, 05:55:43 AM »
Not remembering the next day his primary, if not only, reason for having done something the night before does not change, or reduce in importance, that reason.  If Martin had survived and woke up in the hospital thinking he should have $45 dollars in his pants pockets because he can no longer remember spending $5 at the 7-11, he's still only going to have $40.

As for the getting out being because of the dispatcher's question instead of Martin's increased forward velocity, no one's reflexes are that fast.  He got out because "S***, he's running".

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2012, 11:03:51 AM »
It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.

3 seconds. I just listened to the call.

The sh*te line is much more casual than than  "These arseholes". Did TM  start to walk towards the T at that point,  then  speed up to faster paste? How did Z see TM enter the backyard, come back out, circlle the Zmobile
take off running, but lose sight of exactly where he had just seen TM?

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2012, 11:51:03 AM »
It's 8 seconds from "sh*t..." to hearing the car door shut, not three.

3 seconds. I just listened to the call.

The sh*te line is much more casual than than  "These arseholes". Did TM  start to walk towards the T at that point,  then  speed up to faster paste? How did Z see TM enter the backyard, come back out, circlle the Zmobile
take off running, but lose sight of exactly where he had just seen TM?

At 2:07 into the call he says he's running, at 2:10 you hear the door open, at 2:14 you hear it get slammed shut.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #43 on: July 09, 2012, 12:30:36 PM »

First Zimmerman gets out of his truck and he and the dispatcher have the whole "Are you following him?", "We don't need for you to do that" exchange, and then he asks if Zimmerman wants the responding officer to meet with him, and only after getting an incomprehensible set of directions from Zimmerman does the dispatcher ask in front of which address was he parked, so Zimmerman did not get out of the truck to find some address about which he had not yet been asked.

The sounds of Zimmerman beginning the process of exiting his truck begin too soon to be in response to the dispatcher asking which way Martin was running, so he had already decided to do so in response to some other stimulus.

The conversation taking place right before Z says "sh!t, he's running" is Z trying to relay where he's located (he does not have an address).  While I totally agree that his movement is reactionary to TM taking off running, his thoughts/conversation right at the time TM takes off running is about providing his location, so I think its reasonable that he recalls getting out to get a street name/address because thats what he was discussing when he got out of the vehicle and what he ultimately says he ended up doing after ending the call with the dispatcher.   It doesn't sound like he runs after TM, so it doesn't seem like his intent is to follow/chase because you can't really follow someone who is running by walking and talking to a dispatcher.  Obviously Z does respond to the dispatchers question that he is following TM, but I think his explanation was that he was following the path that TM took, not that he was able to keep a visual and follow while walking after someone who was running away.

I do think this is a fair statement to try and attack, but whether he gets out of his vehicle to find the street name/address or to see if he can tell where TM ran off to, doesn't change any legal aspect of the case. 

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #44 on: July 09, 2012, 01:22:49 PM »
The conversation taking place right before Z says "sh!t, he's running" is Z trying to relay where he's located (he does not have an address).  While I totally agree that his movement is reactionary to TM taking off running, his thoughts/conversation right at the time TM takes off running is about providing his location, so I think its reasonable that he recalls getting out to get a street name/address because thats what he was discussing when he got out of the vehicle and what he ultimately says he ended up doing after ending the call with the dispatcher.   It doesn't sound like he runs after TM, so it doesn't seem like his intent is to follow/chase because you can't really follow someone who is running by walking and talking to a dispatcher.  Obviously Z does respond to the dispatchers question that he is following TM, but I think his explanation was that he was following the path that TM took, not that he was able to keep a visual and follow while walking after someone who was running away.

I do think this is a fair statement to try and attack, but whether he gets out of his vehicle to find the street name/address or to see if he can tell where TM ran off to, doesn't change any legal aspect of the case.

Before the dispatcher says "Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?", Zimmerman's trying to give them Martin's whereabouts, not his own.

 

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