Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 47895 times)

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Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2012, 11:43:11 PM »
Dispatch: is he by the clubhouse now?
GZ: yeah, now he's coming towards me.

Where did SPD place this exchange?  Where did GZ say it took place? 

GZ claims he was directed by dispatch to move from the clubhouse parking lot to a position where he could
 see the teen.  Did SPD think he was telling the truth?  Where was GZ when he started speaking to Sean the dispatcher?  If he was at his final spot parked by the cut thru, what's up with his memory of being asked to move to where he could see, and his recollections when played the recording, where he repeatedly says he's by the clubhouse?  Why did he seemingly mark the map at the first bend in TTL just south of the mailboxes and then cross it out seconds later?

How did SPD think the two traveled between the clubhouse vicinity and the cut thru area? GZ claims he moved without seeing TM travel from RVC to the cut thru except what little he may have seen from the clubhouse 4660 beechnut st. #239parking lot.  IMO Chris Serino felt GZ chased TM with his car down TTL, causing TM to run.  That's what he's likely hinting at in the final interview IMO.   GZ doesn't take the suggestion to amend his statements.  Why did they offer him the opportunity and why did he refuse?    Shortly before this final interview GZ told SPD that TM approached his car in a doubling back/circling move from the cut thru area, and recalls the specific detail of telling dispatch that TM had his hand in his waistband. 

Given GZs contradictions about where he was when TM approaches his car,  who was right? 

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2012, 08:57:59 AM »
Before the dispatcher says "Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?", Zimmerman's trying to give them Martin's whereabouts, not his own.

Before Z says "sh!t he's running", he is giving directions to where he is located, which by his description on the phone is the same location of TM at that time.  My impression of the call you reference, when the officer asks if he wants to meet the officer, is that Z no longer knew where TM was ("he ran") and he no longer describes anything about TM the rest of the call.  The dispatcher follows up the question of wanting to meet the officer with where to meet them at, Z describes how they would com through the front entrance  to get to his truck, not the back entrance and where he last saw TM running towards.  Other than saying TM ran towards the back entrance, he gives no other directions on where TM might be after he ran.

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2012, 09:13:37 AM »
Before Z says "sh!t he's running", he is giving directions to where he is located, which by his description on the phone is the same location of TM at that time.  My impression of the call you reference, when the officer asks if he wants to meet the officer, is that Z no longer knew where TM was ("he ran") and he no longer describes anything about TM the rest of the call.  The dispatcher follows up the question of wanting to meet the officer with where to meet them at, Z describes how they would com through the front entrance  to get to his truck, not the back entrance and where he last saw TM running towards.  Other than saying TM ran towards the back entrance, he gives no other directions on where TM might be after he ran.

Before Martin runs, Zimmerman is not trying to give directions to where the police can find Zimmerman, he's trying to give directions to where they can find Martin.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2012, 09:42:47 AM »
Before Z says "sh!t he's running", he is giving directions to where he is located, which by his description on the phone is the same location of TM at that time.  My impression of the call you reference, when the officer asks if he wants to meet the officer, is that Z no longer knew where TM was ("he ran") and he no longer describes anything about TM the rest of the call.  The dispatcher follows up the question of wanting to meet the officer with where to meet them at, Z describes how they would com through the front entrance  to get to his truck, not the back entrance and where he last saw TM running towards.  Other than saying TM ran towards the back entrance, he gives no other directions on where TM might be after he ran.


That's a very good point. If he intended to pursue Martin ( who was presumably attempting to flee the complex) why not have the squad car meet him at the back entrance.

Offline DarkSkiesRbest

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #49 on: July 11, 2012, 09:36:43 PM »
I think you are reading too much into GZ responding "yes" to is he by the clubhouse. I believe TM was at the sidewalk at that point and GZ was concentrating on him just after trying to tell the dispatcher where the clubhouse was. He just said "yes" rather than clarify he was beyond the clubhouse is all.
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
 Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
 Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
 Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
 Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
 

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2012, 05:16:35 AM »
I think you are reading too much into GZ responding "yes" to is he by the clubhouse. I believe TM was at the sidewalk at that point and GZ was concentrating on him just after trying to tell the dispatcher where the clubhouse was. He just said "yes" rather than clarify he was beyond the clubhouse is all.
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
 Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
 Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
 Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
 Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

I don't know how we can read 'too much' into this. George says there's a suspicious person, and the first point of reference he gives is....the Clubhouse. Clearly, Martin has to be near the Clubhouse, and when asked, George says yes to exactly that question: Martin's near the Clubhouse, coming towards him.

I can't make up any scenario that has George giving the Clubhouse address if either Martin, George, or both weren't relatively near the Clubhouse.
George doesn't mention anything about going -past- the Clubhouse until 01:40 into the call.

Offline ding7777

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2012, 06:29:54 AM »
Are there any crime scene photos showing the parked truck?

Did the SFPD question anyone regarding the exact location/direction of the parked  truck?  Shelia Zimmerman or the various witnesses? 

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2012, 06:35:45 AM »
If TM circled the truck at the clubhouse, the situation was even more perilous for GZ. TM walks to the sidewalk area, enters it, reemerges, walks toward GZ, who backs up all the way to the clubhouse where TM eventually circles him then runs. GZ leaps out of his truck parked by the cut through. HUH?

Offline 11Rand

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2012, 05:56:31 PM »
As for the getting out being because of the dispatcher's question instead of Martin's increased forward velocity, no one's reflexes are that fast.  He got out because "S***, he's running".

Try this: “He's running? Which way[?]” OR “He's running? Which way[Start processing question now!]'s he running?” Finish processing question now! Act: open door, and get out of car.

See, perfectly normal reflexes.  :)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 05:59:03 PM by 11Rand »

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #54 on: July 13, 2012, 01:38:09 PM »
I think you are reading too much into GZ responding "yes" to is he by the clubhouse. I believe TM was at the sidewalk at that point and GZ was concentrating on him just after trying to tell the dispatcher where the clubhouse was. He just said "yes" rather than clarify he was beyond the clubhouse is all.
Zimmerman: Now he's just staring at me.
 Dispatcher: Okay. You said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
 Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse... [Note 3, 3rd picture]
 Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?
 Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

So a jury will just need to understand that when GZ said "yes"he meant "no." check. 

And when GZ was played the recording and repeatedly said he was "at the clubhouse" he was mistaken as well?  Or can he see around corners? 

I think a jury will be shown the map he personally marked that shows a position just south of the clubhouse thT would suffice for his answer, remove contradictions and easily fit the timeline AND explain the element that GZ leaves out when he claims  TM doubled back to circle his car at the final position he claims as his second and final position: that the teen ran away.  IMO the idea that TM circled GZs car makes no sense and cannot be resolved with the recording unless you can get a jury to agree to the yes means no and "I'm still by the
clubhouse" is a false memory he refused to shake even when repeatedly offered the chance.

Mark o'Mara certainly has his work cut out for him. Good thing he has George to call to the stand if he needs help getting the jury to see all this makes more sense than my speculation that GZ pushed a false narrative to hide a car to pedestrian "chase" in slow motion down TTL, a scenario that removes in onsidtencies and contradictions and explains inconsistencies and isn't even a crime in and of itself...

BTW, where was George when he said yes but meant no? 

Offline turbo6

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #55 on: July 13, 2012, 08:45:54 PM »
IMO Chris Serino felt GZ chased TM with his car down TTL, causing TM to run.  That's what he's likely hinting at in the final interview IMO.   GZ doesn't take the suggestion to amend his statements.  Why did they offer him the opportunity and why did he refuse?    Shortly before this final interview GZ told SPD that TM approached his car in a doubling back/circling move from the cut thru area, and recalls the specific detail of telling dispatch that TM had his hand in his waistband. 

With the context of the non emergency call, I can't really imagine at any point he chased him with his car in any sort of reckless manner. There's no engine roar, wind noise, etc. Plus, if GZ was visibly speeding towards Martin, would he have have likely returned to the vehicle? He probably would have just kept running.

I tend to take the NE call for what it is, GZ had no idea what was going to happen and had no reason to lie at that point. He's no criminal mastermind who is trying to craft an alibi after he just spotted the kid minutes beforehand.

Zimmerman at times seems pretty scattered brained in his recollections, but honestly in that sense he is basically like every other person I've known with ADD. To me, his events leading to exiting the truck seem to line up given that he probably dialed the number to dispatch while at or possibly departing the clubhouse and connected while driving down or parking his truck on TTL.

The part of the NE call that always stuck out to me is when he purportedly asked the dispatcher "How long until you get an officer over here?". His tone is obviously distressed and uncomfortable. Regardless if GZ followed him slowly or quickly in his car, TM was clearly unfazed and became close enough to clearly unnerve GZ.



Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #56 on: July 14, 2012, 06:41:35 AM »
The part of the NE call that always stuck out to me is when he purportedly asked the dispatcher "How long until you get an officer over here?". His tone is obviously distressed and uncomfortable. Regardless if GZ followed him slowly or quickly in his car, TM was clearly unfazed and became close enough to clearly unnerve GZ.
This strikes me as something the defense will most definitely NOT want to bring up at trial....

Offline cboldt

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #57 on: July 14, 2012, 07:15:57 AM »
This strikes me as something the defense will most definitely NOT want to bring up at trial....

I recall this being discussed previously, at some length.  Zimmerman's state of mind can change, depending on the circumstances.  When Martin is coming closer and maybe engaging in a bit of visual bravado (staring, for example), Zimmerman might be unnerved by a sense of impending unwanted interaction or contact with the stranger.  When Martin runs away, Zimmerman can be relieved, on belief that the risk of interaction or contact has passed.

My point being that defense should not be uncomfortable bringing up Zimmerman's state of mind and intentions at various points of the timeline.  I think it's true that Zimmerman himself said he had fear at some points before the physical struggle started, and it's better for him to explain what gave him the sense of fear, and if the fear passed, when and why it passed.

Offline turbo6

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #58 on: July 14, 2012, 05:40:48 PM »
To me it seems pretty reasonable GZ, as soon as he exited the truck, that he never really anticipated getting any closer than 50 yards to him. We'll never really know but, I can't imagine TM was pussy footing around when he cut the corner and took off. He likely bolted and Zimmerman probably knew in the back of his mind he'd never catch him but maybe at the very least catch a glimpse of him running out the back entrance or whatever.

He clearly treated this for what he thought this was, just another guy possibly committing some burglaries. He called the cops, kept an eye on him and assumed, like every other one, he would simply run far away when spooked. What potential thief would possibly want a confrontation if they were casing/burglarizing a house? The only problem is GZ was wrong on two things....1) he was not (likely) a burglar 2) he was not planning on running that far.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #59 on: July 15, 2012, 01:06:29 PM »
To me it seems pretty reasonable GZ, as soon as he exited the truck, that he never really anticipated getting any closer than 50 yards to him. We'll never really know but, I can't imagine TM was pussy footing around when he cut the corner and took off. He likely bolted and Zimmerman probably knew in the back of his mind he'd never catch him but maybe at the very least catch a glimpse of him running out the back entrance or whatever.

He clearly treated this for what he thought this was, just another guy possibly committing some burglaries. He called the cops, kept an eye on him and assumed, like every other one, he would simply run far away when spooked. What potential thief would possibly want a confrontation if they were casing/burglarizing a house? The only problem is GZ was wrong on two things....1) he was not (likely) a burglar 2) he was not planning on running that far.


This is a good point.  But at trial, the prosecution wants the jury to see that GZ sought a confrontation and everything they argue will have that idea tied to it, true or not.  GZ cannot account for his "missing minutes" except to say he was already at RVC and that he was trying to fix his flashlight the whole while. The prosecution will attack his credibility and say in a general sense that he pursued the teen, confronted the teen and shot the teen and use his IMP damaged credibility to question his excuses, real or false for his pursuit.  Other than his own word, there is no absolute proof or witness that can confirm the fight started where or how GZ claims, and that's less than ideal for the defense.  It doesn't mean the prosecution has an airtight case, but SO FAR that seems to be their general strategy.  We don't yet know what else they may or may not have to get all the way to M2 beyond a reasonable doubt but GZ has to bet the next 40 years or so on the idea that "they got nothing" when IMO they have his credibility damaged for certain in regards to other aspects of the evening, most notably his movements from the clubhouse to getting out of his car to his walk to wherever he says he was when he told the dispatcher "he ran."  Major contradictions in all that IMO, and I've yet to see them refuted here, IMO. 
 

 

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