Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 42025 times)

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Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #60 on: July 15, 2012, 01:58:34 PM »
We are using GZ's statements, delivered in an void, as the defenses reconstruction of events.

It's far more likely that the defense will construct a scenario that is the referential backbone of their case.
That back bone will allow them to dispel or dismiss  discrepancies between GZ's contemporaneous statements and the evidence. If GZ had kept quiet of course the defense wouldn't need to spend time on the discrepancies.

However the salient issue is 'did GZ reasonably fear serious bodily harm'?  Even only relying on the prosecution evidence, it seems to me  that he did.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #61 on: July 15, 2012, 04:39:50 PM »
The disparity of injury is evidence of an ambush style attack. It's not really honest to make a claim about the evidence (i.e. "injuries that GZ may or may not have suffered at the hands of Trayvon Martin") and then pretend that it's off-topic. Zimmerman has injuries and Martin does not would be very relevant to the police investigation and trying to find out who was the aggressor.

So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation?  And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #62 on: July 15, 2012, 07:54:04 PM »
We are using GZ's statements, delivered in an void, as the defenses reconstruction of events.

It's far more likely that the defense will construct a scenario that is the referential backbone of their case.
That back bone will allow them to dispel or dismiss  discrepancies between GZ's contemporaneous statements and the evidence. If GZ had kept quiet of course the defense wouldn't need to spend time on the discrepancies.

However the salient issue is 'did GZ reasonably fear serious bodily harm'?  Even only relying on the prosecution evidence, it seems to me  that he did.

In other words they will make up a new version of what they claim happened!?!?  Wouldn't that just introduce more contradictions?  Please give examples of how this helps the defense.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #63 on: July 15, 2012, 08:18:42 PM »
So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation?  And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?


Once again you favor speculation over evidence . Zimmerman's statements are evidence. You think that they are without value based on a few minor inconsistencies between his various statements and some minor discrepancies between the evidence and his statements. I disagree on the value a jury will assign to his  voluntary statements , given without benefit of consul and before he had any real idea about what evidence was available other than his recollection.

What is your evidence you used to determine that GZ tried to detain TM or ran into a tree?
If you can't cite any then its SPECULATION.
Got one any new ones featuring little green men?
 
Quote
The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time. 
That's a fact?
Its an opinion I think. I wouldn't disagree with a fact.

Or is a fact an opinion that you  stubbornly cling to in the face of any and all reasonable explanations?

« Last Edit: July 15, 2012, 08:21:25 PM by Lousy1 »

Offline Philly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2012, 09:02:22 PM »
A few weeks ago while mowing the lawn, I unknowingly passed over a nest of yellow jackets.  I screamed and told my my spouse that I must have been stung at least 20 times.  Later, when counting the actual strings, we spotted only 5 visible wounds.  Fortunately for me, my spouse accepted this inconsistency and didn't accuse me of having stabbed myself with a pencil 5 times.

My silly analogy aside, based on the actual testimony and evidence, in my opinion it is beyond absurd to think that GZ might have ran into a tree or hedge on his own accord, sustained injuries of this type only to his face, and still somehow managed to catch up to Trayvon only to awkwardly detain him by dragging him to the ground and clutching him so that the 17 year old couldn't escape.

So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation?  And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #65 on: July 15, 2012, 09:26:44 PM »
  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time. 

I think this has been proven to be inaccurate.  First, TM's feet are roughly 30' from the T and it had fallen off of George and been rolled over to perform live saving measures meaning it could have been another 5' or so closer when the shot occurred.  Also, I don't recall Z ever saying where he fell is where the struggle stayed with no movement.  John saw them outside for what ,5-10 seconds and he has them moving from the grass to the concrete and its clear it moved back to the grass before the shot.  The witness on the end unit seems to describe a slow moving conflict with what sounded like wrestling on the ground and cries for help. 

Seems to me most of the evidence has Z getting struck by the T, stumbling south (the way the land flows) and as he stumbled, TM got on top.  The exact distance of this first event is unknown, but I'd guess this put them somewhere behind the end unit witnesses or about 10-15 feet from the T.  The fight then moves another 15-20 feet over the next minute or so.  IT really doesn't seem all that difficult to believe that the bodies moved this far on the ground over this amount of time.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #66 on: July 15, 2012, 10:38:25 PM »
I think this has been proven to be inaccurate.  First, TM's feet are roughly 30' from the T and it had fallen off of George and been rolled over to perform live saving measures meaning it could have been another 5' or so closer when the shot occurred.  Also, I don't recall Z ever saying where he fell is where the struggle stayed with no movement.  John saw them outside for what ,5-10 seconds and he has them moving from the grass to the concrete and its clear it moved back to the grass before the shot.  The witness on the end unit seems to describe a slow moving conflict with what sounded like wrestling on the ground and cries for help. 

Seems to me most of the evidence has Z getting struck by the T, stumbling south (the way the land flows) and as he stumbled, TM got on top.  The exact distance of this first event is unknown, but I'd guess this put them somewhere behind the end unit witnesses or about 10-15 feet from the T.  The fight then moves another 15-20 feet over the next minute or so.  IT really doesn't seem all that difficult to believe that the bodies moved this far on the ground over this amount of time.
Thanks

On this site  have given three examples out  of literally hundreds that I witnessed of combatants and contestants being driven stumbling for at least 18 ft ( the typical size of a boxing ring square).

For some reason some posters here have decided that rather than question or discuss my observations they would simply ignore them. Any one I have queried that has witnessed or been involved in martial arts or football find the denials amusing.

I can only conclude that reality is sometimes inconvenient.

Offline Juan

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #67 on: July 15, 2012, 11:22:47 PM »
So do you feel the SPD felt that GZ's injuries matched his description of the altercation? And, a bonus question - if GZ ran into a tree on his accord, or crashed into a hedge while attempting to detain TM, might he have injuries like small cuts on his face and a broken nose?  What if he slipped on the wet grass and fell on his face on the sidewalk?

I don't doubt that TM was on top of GZ in John's back yard.  That part was witnessed.  I just don't see why SPD has to believe how GZ said the fight started when they caught him in obvious contradictions elsewhere.  Contradictions usually mean that one or BOTH of the contradictory claims are lies.  Liars have no credibility.  IMO the SPD considered GZ's statements as inconsistent, contradictory and "scripted," at least in the opinion of the lead investigator. 

Martin may not have injuries as a result of having GZ's hands clutching his body tightly so he could not run away the whole time.  That's as good of an explanation as George's.  The idea that he "stumbled" some 45 feet IMO after being sucker punched leaves out the coherent explanation of what TM did during this time.  Was he hitting GZ?  Where does he make that claim?

Yes. The lead investigator even wrote that GZ's injuries were consistent with a life threatening violent encounter. No mention of the absurd notion of a tree or hedge being responsible.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #68 on: July 16, 2012, 12:54:12 AM »

Once again you favor speculation over evidence . Zimmerman's statements are evidence.

Statements introduced by either the defense or the prosecution are indeed classified as evidence at trial.  When these statements are contradictory, and inconsistent, and form a pattern that can be demonstrated to a jury that suggests the person who made the statements had an agenda to mislead investigators, that's a problem for the defense.  IMO George has that problem in spades.  And evidence in the form of statements to investigators is either determined by a jury to be true or to be false. That's what juries do, they weigh evidence to establish facts.  "Evidence" of this sort is not the same thing as "fact" until a jury sees it as such after hearing arguments and deliberating.   I fear you are conflating the two. 

Quote
You think that they are without value based on a few minor inconsistencies between his various statements and some minor discrepancies between the evidence and his statements. I disagree on the value a jury will assign to his  voluntary statements , given without benefit of consul and before he had any real idea about what evidence was available other than his recollection.



Please don't put words in my mouth.  I feel that GZ's contradictions are major and the discrepancies are significant.  Clearly you and I disagree about this, but so be it. 

George's story is just that  - his story in his own words about his actions that night.  You can put a silk dress and lipstick on a sow, but all you have is a dressed-up pig.  Lawyer or no lawyer, they are his words freely given shortly after the events occurred with no coercion or promises given to do anything but use them against him in a court of law.  GZ read and signed a Miranda card, so whatever qualifications you care to put on his statements IMO will go nowhere fast in a court of law.  Please cite precedent if you think GZ has some wiggle room regarding his statements and what they represent other than his own words freely given. 

Where was George when he said this to dispatch?

Dispatcher: OK—you said it's 1111 Retreat View? Or 111?
Zimmerman: That's the clubhouse…
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.

The reason I'd like to know your opinion on this is because this is a "discrepancy," it seems, between what he claims happened as he was parked by the cut thru path, where he describes TM doubling back to circle his car, and between what he claims both in the recording AND what he told investigators repeatedly when played the recording, which IMO is that he was parked, not moving, and his car and he were "by the clubhouse" as was Trayvon Martin.   And this "discrepancy" as you call it, is either major or minor, because it concerns the idea that TM stopped fleeing or walking to return and visually confront GZ by deliberately circling his car for no apparent reason other than to signal his displeasure or what have you, a distance of some 400 feet or more IMO.  And George is either telling the truth or he is lying when he said it.  And in one version, he claimed he was in one place and in the other version he claims he was elsewhere.  That's more along the lines of what I'd call a contradiction than a discrepancy, by the way but if you want to use that term that's okay with me, because either position as he gave it makes for an "inconsistency" when you compare it to the recorded call to dispatch.  In other words, both versions don't conform.  IMO a jury is going to see that he is lying, and is a liar and has no credibility and so on and thus and such.  Because that's what the prosecution will call him, and the defense IMO lacks a coherent explanation for these discrepancies and inconsistencies and yes, contradictions where both choice A and choice B don't stand up in court, IMO.  Perhaps you could explain how all this will be seen as minor, but thus far no one I have read on this board has been able to. 

IMO doubling back some 200 feet to circle someone's car is a deliberately hostile act, and a jury would have to weigh that as such if they thought it happened.  The difficulty is, however, that it doesn't seem to have happened in the manner George says it did if it happened at all, since his call was recorded and the timing simply doesn't work with either position he's claimed, IMO unless you care to change that opinion by explaining how it fits. 

Quote
What is your evidence you used to determine that GZ tried to detain TM or ran into a tree?

The evidence I used to determine GZ tried to detain Trayon is Trayvon's dead body.  TM sought to go home, he told his girlfriend that in so many words and she will testify as much I think if and when a trial occurs, and Trayvon did not reach home.  Circumstantial evidence in the form of a scattered debris field, more inconsistent statements from GZ regarding the way the fight started and testimony from Dee Dee all support this argument.  GZ can make his claim that he was assaulted but lacking credibility IMO a jury will not put any weight to the idea. 

Here is what he said happened the first time he talked to investigator Singleton:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me I fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"

Here is what he told the stress test administrator:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me" 

And yes, the defense can argue GZ was under duress or had a bad memory or takes little pills that make his head funny, or whatever, but IMO that in NOT a consistent account that agrees with what he said and did during the walk thru videotaped  "re-eneactment," where GZ says "I guess I stumbled,etc"  Instead I'd say the jury might conclude that the punch that put GZ on the ground in John's back yard took place in John's back yard, not up on the cut thru sidewalk.  And that for him to be there when that happened means GZ is once again pushing a false narrative to conceal the truth from investigators about how he came to be there on the dog walk path, so far south of the path to(wards) his truck. 

As for running into the tree etc, yes it is speculation - vs lies IMO since the idea that he was hit and then stumbled to John's yard is at best an inconsistent statement by a man with motive to lie, and a history of lies and nothing more that that, which is worse than speculation.   Speculation might be true, but lies are always lies.  GZ may have been struck by Trayvon Martin but IMO and in GZ's opinion on the majority of his own statements it doesn't seem to have happened where he says it did or else the body would be up near the T. 

Quote
If you can't cite any then its SPECULATION.
Got one any new ones featuring little green men?
 That's a fact?
Its an opinion I think. I wouldn't disagree with a fact.

You want to weigh "evidence" as fact when it is not established as such by any means.  It's evidence that GZ gives inconsistent accounts and contradictory statements.  IMO that's proof of a lack of credibility not self defense. 

Quote
Or is a fact an opinion that you stubbornly cling to in the face of any and all reasonable explanations?

I'm much more likely to call something you claim "reasonable" when you tell me where GZ was when TM approached his car, and which version of how the fight started is the only right one and why the other versions seem to differ.  Did GZ go forward or back when he was punched?  What did Trayvon do while George stumbled to Johns' yard?  That's around twenty steps IMO.  George pantomimes open faces slaps in his "reenactment" but seems unsure about what happened, or if he was pushed or fell in the end.  Why now is he so uncertain when before he knew which way he fell and that it was "at that point," and "as soon as he punched me" etc.  I don't find him credible.  And I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation from anyone on TalkLeft for where he was when he said:
 
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.


Offline Juan

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #69 on: July 16, 2012, 01:41:11 AM »
Willis, you say, "TM sought to go home, he told his girlfriend that in so many words". If that's the case why did he not do that in the time he had after losing GZ ? The evidence suggests he didn't avail himself of the opportunity to continue on for another 70 yards. Instead he chose to either lie in wait or return to the "T" to confront & assault GZ putting him in fear for his life. As a result he was killed by GZ in self defense. If you can produce evidence to the contrary, please do. Harping on "inconsistencies" of what transpired before the action of self defense is not evidence to contradict it or are your absurd suppositions. Can you prove it was not self defense beyond any & all reasonable doubt ? You haven't come close & I doubt you can.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #70 on: July 16, 2012, 02:25:17 AM »
Thanks

On this site  have given three examples out  of literally hundreds that I witnessed of combatants and contestants being driven stumbling for at least 18 ft ( the typical size of a boxing ring square).

For some reason some posters here have decided that rather than question or discuss my observations they would simply ignore them. Any one I have queried that has witnessed or been involved in martial arts or football find the denials amusing.

I can only conclude that reality is sometimes inconvenient.
And at a minimum, George had to have 'stumbled' at least DOUBLE that distance, yet not only failed to mention it until on the scene, he claimed to have been knocked 'back in to the grass' with the first punch.

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he back east towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's.

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #71 on: July 16, 2012, 02:44:48 AM »
And at a minimum, George had to have 'stumbled' at least DOUBLE that distance, yet not only failed to mention it until on the scene, he claimed to have been knocked 'back in to the grass' with the first punch.

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he back east towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's.

You sure you haven't said east when you mean west there a couple of times?

Towards the truck from the "T" is west.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #72 on: July 16, 2012, 02:47:49 AM »
Yes. That's what I get for posting before I've had my cup of coffee.

So just correcting, for the record:

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he backed east west towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east west/north-west.


Offline spectator

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #73 on: July 16, 2012, 03:01:46 AM »

You want to weigh "evidence" as fact when it is not established as such by any means.  It's evidence that GZ gives inconsistent accounts and contradictory statements.  IMO that's proof of a lack of credibility not self defense. 

I'm much more likely to call something you claim "reasonable" when you tell me where GZ was when TM approached his car, and which version of how the fight started is the only right one and why the other versions seem to differ.  Did GZ go forward or back when he was punched?  What did Trayvon do while George stumbled to Johns' yard?  That's around twenty steps IMO.  George pantomimes open faces slaps in his "reenactment" but seems unsure about what happened, or if he was pushed or fell in the end.  Why now is he so uncertain when before he knew which way he fell and that it was "at that point," and "as soon as he punched me" etc.  I don't find him credible.  And I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation from anyone on TalkLeft for where he was when he said:
 
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse, do you know what the—he's near the
clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband. And he's a black male.


Actually he has no discrepancies not a single one, and the timeline fits perfectly, when dispatch asks "he's near the clubhouse?", George is clearly just agreeing and doe's not want to try and explain, he's busy watching Trayvon who is now walking west towards his car which had just parked on TT (100yds east or so from the clubhouse), listen carefully to the recording and his car.

As for the punch that fits beautifully also, when you are punched it's very common to black out memory wise, so 4 seconds of action could seem like just one, easily 30 ft might seem like 15 ft.

In boxing some hurt fighters never remembered throwing a desperate haymaker that knocked out the opponent who was moving in for the kill, others have forgot going many rounds and finishing the fight after a punch.

We are not computers, we are humans.

Let me give you an example, recently a TV show had a memory test,
a few people were shown the first 10 playing cards of a deck one at a time,
a few seconds later they were asked to remember and none could get past
the first 4 cards, doe's this mean they are inconsistent, should they guess? or
be truthful and say "i don't remember"... lol. 

George's recollection is actually consistent to what a human is expected to remember.

He had 3 things going on at the same time and no idea it would turn out like it did, and no reason to believe a need to remember any of it, how could he possibly recall exactly and in order what was said, we remember better what we see......usually.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #74 on: July 16, 2012, 03:53:38 AM »
Actually he has no discrepancies not a single one, and the timeline fits perfectly

You say this, then go on to defend all his discrepancies with 'well, of course he mis-remembers or forgets some stuff, he's only human'.

Which is it? Do you believe a) there is 'not a single' discrepancy, or b) there are some discrepancies, but hey, "that's to be expected"?

 

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