Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 47723 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline who007

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #75 on: July 16, 2012, 05:03:24 AM »
Actually he has no discrepancies not a single one, and the timeline fits perfectly, when dispatch asks "he's near the clubhouse?", George is clearly just agreeing and doe's not want to try and explain, he's busy watching Trayvon who is now walking west towards his car which had just parked on TT (100yds east or so from the clubhouse), listen carefully to the recording and his car.
...

That does not wash with the statements Z made to police as they played the NEN tape for him
(2/29 audio interview part 3 (Inv. Serino and Inv. Singleton):

DS: Can you pause that for a minute? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, but it seems so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you, can you still see him, and you said, you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said, well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
GZ: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
DS: Okay, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.
DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [continues playing call] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
DS: On Retreat View Circle.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

Offline who007

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #76 on: July 16, 2012, 05:27:54 AM »
...
Let me give you an example, recently a TV show had a memory test,
a few people were shown the first 10 playing cards of a deck one at a time,
a few seconds later they were asked to remember and none could get past
the first 4 cards, doe's this mean they are inconsistent, should they guess? or
be truthful and say "i don't remember"... lol. 

George's recollection is actually consistent to what a human is expected to remember.
...

Your example is comparing short-term memory recall about trivial matters to long-term memory about a traumatic event.  Not in any way comparable.

I will also add this -

From Psychology Today: Why do we remember frightening events so well? Fearful situations stimulate the brain to activate the sympathetic nervous system and adrenal glands causing the release of stress neurotransmitters and hormones. These chemicals activate the "flight or fight" response which includes an increase in heart rate to facilitate the delivery of blood to working muscles. They also stimulate a brain structure called the amygdala.

ETA: research has shown that the brain records traumatic memories differently than "regular memories". PTSD suffers frequently have memory problems in every day life, yet can tell you to the milisecond the events of a trauma because it is engraved, so to speak, on the brain.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/eyes-the-brain/201103/memory-the-amygdala-and-ptsd-0

I do think Z remembers much more than he is telling, it's his telling that provides the selective memory, and the portions he does not wish to disclose. He hasn't refined the line between the two as aptly as he'd like to, and that is why so many say he is lying his story is inconsistent.

Offline Lousy1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4058
  • Rate Post +6/-30
  • Fetch my hammer
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #77 on: July 16, 2012, 05:50:05 AM »
And at a minimum, George had to have 'stumbled' at least DOUBLE that distance, yet not only failed to mention it until on the scene, he claimed to have been knocked 'back in to the grass' with the first punch.

He further claims to have stumbled directly south down the footpath, when he was approached from the south-east, said he back east towards his truck when Martin appeared, and was punched in the face from said Martin which should have pushed him back further to the east/north-east.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's.

Watch the video.
As you say TM approached Zimmerman from the SW.
Quote
Serino positions himself SW of Zimmerman

Zimmerman " I said I don't have a problem and reached for my cell phone
Zimmerman reaches in his pocket

....

Zimmerman : I looked in my pocket... He said You got a problem now and then he was here. Points at sidewalk

Serino  Right here. Steps forward to sidewalk due East of George and within three feet of George.
Zimmerman takes a  half step south and indicates a point with his arm that's east or ENE of his position

Zimmerman "right around here.


So where do you get the punch was thrown from the SW of Zimmerman.

Its quite easy to envision a hook from due staggering GZ due south. Martin also has more than enough room and is close enough in the video to siddle right and punch in one motion.

The only 'reality' that's inconvenient is George's. - Yes but for who?


Offline Lousy1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4058
  • Rate Post +6/-30
  • Fetch my hammer
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #78 on: July 16, 2012, 06:03:14 AM »
Your example is comparing short-term memory recall about trivial matters to long-term memory about a traumatic event.  Not in any way comparable.

I will also add this -

From Psychology Today: Why do we remember frightening events so well? Fearful situations stimulate the brain to activate the sympathetic nervous system and adrenal glands causing the release of stress neurotransmitters and hormones. These chemicals activate the "flight or fight" response which includes an increase in heart rate to facilitate the delivery of blood to working muscles. They also stimulate a brain structure called the amygdala.

ETA: research has shown that the brain records traumatic memories differently than "regular memories". PTSD suffers frequently have memory problems in every day life, yet can tell you to the milisecond the events of a trauma because it is engraved, so to speak, on the brain.

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/eyes-the-brain/201103/memory-the-amygdala-and-ptsd-0

I do think Z remembers much more than he is telling, it's his telling that provides the selective memory, and the portions he does not wish to disclose. He hasn't refined the line between the two as aptly as he'd like to, and that is why so many say he is lying his story is inconsistent.

Isn't this a non sequitur?

I think that until Martin confronted GZ the only frighting part of the evening was that brief incident when Martin walked toward his car. Other than that, Zimmerman was simply waiting for the police. After Martin was lost -and presumable had fled the complex- it would very boring settling in for a wait of unknown duration.

Even when he was calling it in why would GZ be frightened. He had made many similar reports before. Ho Hum


Offline who007

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #79 on: July 16, 2012, 06:46:33 AM »
Isn't this a non sequitur?

No.

Quote
I think that until Martin confronted GZ the only frighting part of the evening was that brief incident when Martin walked toward his car. Other than that, Zimmerman was simply waiting for the police. After Martin was lost -and presumable had fled the complex- it would very boring settling in for a wait of unknown duration.

Even when he was calling it in why would GZ be frightened. He had made many similar reports before. Ho Hum

So now Zimmerman wasn't in fear when he described not wanting to walk back through the path without the light? (bangs on flashlight for sound effects) ...here he is in a dark area, where he just chased a guy, who he thought was on drugs, up to no good, armed and possibly a dangerous criminal?  He wasn't afraid then?  It was just a ho-hummer in that darkness as he (boringly) waited for police?  Really?

DS: You were afraid of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am


How about the moment he was approached by this "****ing *******" who cold-cocked him, knocking him down?  From that point on...?  I guess we can all agree from there it was elevated to a red-zone fear.

CS: They’re gonna ask like why you didn’t like haul ass. You understand that, right? I mean, how could you leave if you were scared.

My citation on how the mind (generally) records traumatic events more precisely stands. 

I will again state I think the events are seared into his memory.  It's just the part he chooses to selectively disclose, and those parts he has rather haphazardly fictionalized, creatively edited and alternately "forgot" at precise moments when the story does not comport with the physical  evidence and timeline that bring us to where we are now:
arguing  not whether his story is consistent, (it isn't) but how many of these inconsistencies are we we willing to buy, and just how many will a jury attribute to poor recollection or creative fabrication.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 06:49:30 AM by who007 »

Offline AJ

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #80 on: July 16, 2012, 06:53:52 AM »
That does not wash with the statements Z made to police as they played the NEN tape for him
(2/29 audio interview part 3 (Inv. Serino and Inv. Singleton):
<snip>

I don't see this as a huge discrepancy. Mr. Zimmerman is confident that he didn't leave the clubhouse until he was asked to do so - but that never actually happened. It's very possible that he was listening for that snippet of conversation before confirming he had left the clubhouse - I'd say it's evident by him not being sure as the call progresses, but that's speculation.

Offline Lousy1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4058
  • Rate Post +6/-30
  • Fetch my hammer
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #81 on: July 16, 2012, 07:18:29 AM »

No.

So now Zimmerman wasn't in fear when he described not wanting to walk back through the path without the light? (bangs on flashlight for sound effects) ...here he is in a dark area, where he just chased a guy, who he thought was on drugs, up to no good, armed and possibly a dangerous criminal?  He wasn't afraid then?  It was just a ho-hummer in that darkness as he (boringly) waited for police?  Really?

DS: You were afraid of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am


How about the moment he was approached by this "****ing *******" who cold-cocked him, knocking him down?  From that point on...?  I guess we can all agree from there it was elevated to a red-zone fear.

Zimmerman was in fear of a person he thought was long gone?

Sorry one can walk down the street see a threatening (frightening) situation and it does not trigger a flight or fight reaction.

A fight or an immanent fight,  triggers a fight or flight reaction.

You insist that any/some level of fear is sufficient to induce a memory enhancing fight or flight reaction?
If you premise is true, how do you explain the disparity in memory of the witnesses who also professed to be frightened? Shouldn't they be experiencing millisecond detailed recall from the magic of amygdala stimulation

Are you asserting that a fight causes the brain to retain previous, ante-fight  memories?

I have been in flight or fight situations, involving extreme trauma. My experience is not consistent  to your assertion.

BTW You are very selective in quoting the article ( not a study)
The full name of the article
Quote
Memory, the Amygdala, and PTSD.
The fine line between remembering too much and too little.
From the article
Quote
Like the control subjects, B.P. reacted strongly to the emotionally arousing parts of the story right after it was told. One week after hearing the story, however, control subjects recalled the disturbing parts of the narrative better than the emotionally neutral parts. B.P. remembered the emotionally neutral sections as well as the control subjects, but he demonstrated no enhanced retention of the emotionally arousing parts

Have you studied GZ to exclude him from the B.P category?

Do you think your prejudices may have have overcome your objectivity?
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 07:24:23 AM by Lousy1 »

Offline dragon ash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
  • Rate Post +0/-0
  • Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #82 on: July 16, 2012, 07:42:18 AM »
Watch the video.
As you say TM approached Zimmerman from the SW.
Welll, we agree that this is what George says.
So where do you get the punch was thrown from the SW of Zimmerman.
Um....you mean besides from the fact that we both agree that George clearly states that Martin approached George from the SW?

Its quite easy to envision a hook staggering GZ due south. Martin also has more than enough room and is close enough in the video to siddle right and punch in one motion.
It is? How in the world does this make any sense? I did watch the video, and I can't believe you're seriously claiming that, in that video, George is claiming to have been punched from the side. He can't be any more clear: He looked down for his phone, Martin was right in front of him and punched him in the face. And then he says he 'thinks' he stumbled, he fell, Martin pushed him down, etc.

That's not even in the ballpark from his initial statements that he was knocked back on to the grass from the first punch. Hell, it's not even the same effin' sport (with apologies to Pulp Fiction): we go from getting punched and knocked down and straddled from the first punch, to being hit and sor tof stumbling or somethign, and then being pushed down.

Besides - if George was punched from the side, he should have a bruise on the left side of his face, but if anything the small cut on his nose is on the right side of his nose.
 
Please look at this picture and tell me you see evidence of George being punched on the left-hand side of his face strong enough to force him to stumble south.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 07:51:04 AM by dragon ash »

Offline dragon ash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
  • Rate Post +0/-0
  • Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #83 on: July 16, 2012, 07:48:48 AM »
Zimmerman was in fear of a person he thought was long gone?
You're joking, right? It's blindingly obvious that Zimmerman clearly didn't think Martin was 'long gone': right up until the last 30 seconds of the NEN phone call, George didn't want to say his address out loud, obviously because he thought Martin might still be near by.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #84 on: July 16, 2012, 07:50:45 AM »
Wasn't it you, Dragon, who suggested that TM was a Southpaw? That might complicate things too.
If he was a lefty, he would have most likely hit GZ on the right side of the face.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #85 on: July 16, 2012, 07:53:31 AM »
You're joking, right? It's blindingly obvious that Zimmerman clearly didn't think Martin was 'long gone': right up until the last 30 seconds of the NEN phone call, George didn't want to say his address out loud, obviously because he thought Martin might still be near by.


Which makes one wonder if GZ ever left the 'T'

Offline dragon ash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
  • Rate Post +0/-0
  • Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #86 on: July 16, 2012, 07:55:15 AM »
Wasn't it you, Dragon, who suggested that TM was a Southpaw? That might complicate things too.
If he was a lefty, he would have most likely hit GZ on the right side of the face.

I can't remember if I suggested it or not. I think I recall seeing Martin use his left hand to reach into his pocket for change in the 7-11 video or something, don't recall what made me think he might be left-handed. I don't know if it's been confirmed if Martin is a southpaw or not (we know that George is).

Obviously if Martin is left-handed, it would sort of explain the small cut on the right side of GZ's nose...but would make George's claim of stumbling -south- after getting punched even more preposterous.

Offline willisnewton

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 103
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #87 on: July 16, 2012, 07:58:57 AM »
I think this has been proven to be inaccurate.  First, TM's feet are roughly 30' from the T and it had fallen off of George and been rolled over to perform live saving measures meaning it could have been another 5' or so closer when the shot occurred.  Also, I don't recall Z ever saying where he fell is where the struggle stayed with no movement.  John saw them outside for what ,5-10 seconds and he has them moving from the grass to the concrete and its clear it moved back to the grass before the shot.  The witness on the end unit seems to describe a slow moving conflict with what sounded like wrestling on the ground and cries for help. 

Seems to me most of the evidence has Z getting struck by the T, stumbling south (the way the land flows) and as he stumbled, TM got on top.  The exact distance of this first event is unknown, but I'd guess this put them somewhere behind the end unit witnesses or about 10-15 feet from the T.  The fight then moves another 15-20 feet over the next minute or so.  It really doesn't seem all that difficult to believe that the bodies moved this far on the ground over this amount of time.


All distances cited below are IMO but based on google earth ruler tool and an overlay of the total station map that ALREADY was in agreement with my earlier assessment based solely on photo analysis.  What do you base your estimates on?

It's 30 feet to the tan bag from the south edge of the T.  So TM's feet are more like 44 foot away from the inside of the T.  And rolling a body over five feet probably puts them back on their face again - try it in bed, and I hope you don't fall off.  Plus we don't know which way he was rolled, but his cell phone was father south.  I doubt the body was moved farther than the width of Trayvon's skinny hips. 

Yes, the struggle on the ground may have moved some but the objects around are in a circle less than eight foot across at most, IMO.  I doubt it moved far since GZ claims TM was "riding" him the whole time, and engaged in many activities such as head banging and smothering etc.  Do you claim the fight went to the ground after TM got on top of hims somehow (piggyback?) because that's not what George claims, ever.

Fifteen feet south of where GZ stood in the walk thru video is even with the north edge of the building.  So if you are trying to claim halfway down past 1211 TTL then the distance is more like 25 feet.  If the fight then went to the ground and moved to where the body/shell casing were found then it moved another 20 feet on the ground.  Looking forward to your You Tube video of a "cowboy on an inverted inchworm" demonstrating that part of the move.  Don't forget the head slams and smothering, MMA, etc. 

Whatever the actual distances are, they are not favorable estimates pulled from thin air and waved away with vague explanations.   

Here's GZ's orignal descriptions to SIngleton, the night of the killing:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"


and during the "stress test" he tells it like this:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me"

 George's story IMO sounds like he was on his feet on the sidewalk at John's backyard at the moment he was punched.  How did he get there and what were the two doing at the time? 

Offline Lousy1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4058
  • Rate Post +6/-30
  • Fetch my hammer
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #88 on: July 16, 2012, 08:09:00 AM »
How in the world does this make any sense? I did watch the video, and I can't believe you're seriously claiming that, in that video,


It couldn't be more clear. 20 seconds into interview

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/in-newly-released-video-zimmerman-walks-police-through-alleged-fight-with-trayvon-martin/


"he said 'you got a problem now' and then he was HERE
<emphatically points to position on sidewalk>

Its should be obvious that GZ is referring to Treyvon's relative position

The detectives re-positioning "you mean right here" seems to  indicate that he understood the gesture also

The position is within a foot of GZ and due west of him.
From that close position TM was able to launch a punch from anywhere within a 270 degree arc of George.

I  think George would  re-position himself to prevent  TM getting in back of him. But I also see no indication that he expected the punch until it was thrown.

Your burden of proof is to prove it couldn't happen that way. I for one think it probably happen that way.



Offline Lousy1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4058
  • Rate Post +6/-30
  • Fetch my hammer
Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #89 on: July 16, 2012, 08:11:40 AM »

All distances cited below are IMO but based on google earth ruler tool and an overlay of the total station map that ALREADY was in agreement with my earlier assessment based solely on photo analysis.  What do you base your estimates on?

It's 30 feet to the tan bag from the south edge of the T.  So TM's feet are more like 44 foot away from the inside of the T.  And rolling a body over five feet probably puts them back on their face again - try it in bed, and I hope you don't fall off.  Plus we don't know which way he was rolled, but his cell phone was father south.  I doubt the body was moved farther than the width of Trayvon's skinny hips. 

Yes, the struggle on the ground may have moved some but the objects around are in a circle less than eight foot across at most, IMO.  I doubt it moved far since GZ claims TM was "riding" him the whole time, and engaged in many activities such as head banging and smothering etc.  Do you claim the fight went to the ground after TM got on top of hims somehow (piggyback?) because that's not what George claims, ever.

Fifteen feet south of where GZ stood in the walk thru video is even with the north edge of the building.  So if you are trying to claim halfway down past 1211 TTL then the distance is more like 25 feet.  If the fight then went to the ground and moved to where the body/shell casing were found then it moved another 20 feet on the ground.  Looking forward to your You Tube video of a "cowboy on an inverted inchworm" demonstrating that part of the move.  Don't forget the head slams and smothering, MMA, etc. 

Whatever the actual distances are, they are not favorable estimates pulled from thin air and waved away with vague explanations.   

Here's GZ's orignal descriptions to SIngleton, the night of the killing:
"I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time"
"as soon as he punched me i fell backwards into the grass."
"and he punched me in the nose. At that point, I fell down…"


and during the "stress test" he tells it like this:
"and he just punched me in the nose, and i fell backwards and to my side, and he ended up on top of me"

 George's story IMO sounds like he was on his feet on the sidewalk at John's backyard at the moment he was punched.  How did he get there and what were the two doing at the time?


So do you think he deliberately reversed himself during the subsequent walk through or do you belief that  being in the actual location jogged his memory?

I don't see the word immediately. as in I IMMEDIATELY fell
« Last Edit: July 16, 2012, 08:22:59 AM by Lousy1 »

 

Site Meter
click
tracking