Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 41736 times)

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Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #90 on: July 16, 2012, 08:16:41 AM »
You're joking, right? It's blindingly obvious that Zimmerman clearly didn't think Martin was 'long gone': right up until the last 30 seconds of the NEN phone call, George didn't want to say his address out loud, obviously because he thought Martin might still be near by.


Cite? Maybe he didn't know who was listing, The T is hardly private?

GZ "These ArseHoles always get away?"  Hmmm, where?

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #91 on: July 16, 2012, 08:45:12 AM »
I don't see this as a huge discrepancy. Mr. Zimmerman is confident that he didn't leave the clubhouse until he was asked to do so - but that never actually happened. It's very possible that he was listening for that snippet of conversation before confirming he had left the clubhouse - I'd say it's evident by him not being sure as the call progresses, but that's speculation.

So, because he's wrong, he's right?  I get the feeling the prosecution would LOVE to hear that explained to a jury in open court.  Could his later "not sure-ness" also be explained to a jury as the hemming and hawing of a man who is caught having painted himself into a corner and made contradictory statements, BOTH of which implicate a story that does not match the recorded call? 

GZ marked a middle position (at the first corner of TTL, south of the mailboxes) on the map Singleton gave him, but quickly crossed it out just before he arrived at his first telling of the "TM doubled back/circled/hand in waistband."  I believe IMO that this is where his car was when TM approached him on foot - walking towards his home from the mailboxes (per Dee Dee) and/or "near the clubhouse now?/Yeah" (per GZ with dispatch) , not nonsensically or menacingly doubling back from the dog walk.  Please show us how the "doubling back" move, a round trip walk of some 400 feet at minimum fits into GZ's recorded call at either position, clubhouse parking lot or parked by cut thru because it doesn't jibe with GZ's memory of calling dispatch while he was ahead of TM on RVC and parked at the clubhouse.  If he called from there, moved and reached a human in the time we have on the call log, TM has not yet had enough time to reach the cut thru / dog walk T area unless he ALSO passed him at the clubhouse parking lot and then ran ahead while GZ couldn't see him, only to double back once GZ arrived at his final parking spot he claims he took.  For GZ to move while on hold, TM would likely still be behind GZ somewhere on TTL.  GZ tells it as though he arrived from the clubhouse having never spied TM from a moving vehicle while on TTL.  IMO he's covering something, and I don't see how the timing EVER works for selective parts of his versions, much less one complete telling.   

Plus, significantly starting the "speaking to a human" portion of the recorded call at the final parking spot  leaves out the repeated insistence by George that he was "by the clubhouse" when he's played the tape of the approach/hand in waistband section of the call, and of course the original agreement that TM was "near the clubhouse/Yeah" said to dispatch.  "Yeah" does not mean "no" after an explanation in a courtroom, IMO.   

IMO these are nor false memories, minor inconsistencies, or evidence of a forgetful nature - they are evidence of being caught by investigators having pushed a false narrative he tried to sell earlier, conflicting with the harsh light of truth in the form of the recorded call, a call GZ behaved as though would not be held up against his account.   IMO GZ deliberatley wanted to obscure how he and TM moved from the clubhouse area to the cut thru area.  IMO placing GZ at the position he himself marked on a map (and quickly crossed out) resolves inconsistencies and solves the reason for contradictions - he WAS "by the clubhouse" just not in the parking lot) when TM approached his vehicle.  Then, GZ turned around and followed him part way down TTL, causing TM to run away.  Note also that GZ doesn't describe the running away ever, unless prompted, and when questioned specifically about the nature of the running has nothing to say about HOW TM was running. 


CS: Okay. [continues playing call]
DS: Can you pause that for a minute? Okay, when you explained it to me, you said you had pulled over initially at the clubhouse, correct?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, but it seems so fast, and then I thought you told me, and you can correct me if I’m wrong, I thought you said they asked you, can you still see him, and you said, you told them you couldn’t, and you asked, and they said, well get to where you can see where he’s at. And you told me it was at that point you moved.
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Now you’re saying he’s coming up to your car. Does that mean you’ve already, at this point in the tape, you’re already on Twin Tree, the street you didn’t know the name of at the time?
GZ: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
DS: Okay, but he’s walking up to your car now, right?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.

DS: On the tape, right. Cause you’re saying he’s walking up. You’re talking about when you’ve already left the clubhouse and now you’re on the corner.
GZ: No, ma’am. No, ma’am. I’m at the clubhouse.

DS: You’re still at the clubhouse when he does this?
GZ: Mm hmm.
DS: Okay. [Retreat view or 111?  Now he's coming towards me…. waistband] Pause it right there. Okay, where’s, where are you at now? Are you still at the clubhouse?
GZ: I think I’m still at the clubhouse, yes.
DS: Okay. [and he's a black male - something's wrong with him] Has he moved yet?
GZ: I don’t think so.
DS: You’re still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I think so.
DS: On Retreat View Circle.

GZ: Yes, ma’am. I don’t remember even saying he had a button on his shirt.
DS: Okay. [with him..something's wrong with him… what his deal is]
CS: Something’s wrong with him. What’s that statement supposed to mean?
GZ: I don’t know.
CS: Okay. [continues playing call  Ah, these assholes, they always get away]
DS: Okay, where are you at now? Are you still in front of the clubhouse?
GZ: I don’t remember.
CS: Okay. [these axxholes always get away  ] That statement. "These a**holes…" what’s behind that?
GZ: People that victimize the neighborhood.
DS: Didn’t you just tell us in there that a week earlier they made an arrest?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: They don’t always get away.
GZ: No.
CS: Good point. [plays recording] What’s happening now? Are you guys walking now, is he walking?
GZ: No, that’s, I was parked where I could see him now.
CS: So you’re…
DS: Okay, so you’re definitely not in front of the clubhouse any more, at this point?
GZ: No.
CS: So you’re ahead of him?
GZ: No, I was behind him.

CS: Okay, so you walked to your car, then walked along this path and you were behind him?
GZ: Yes, sir.
CS: Okay.
GZ: When I was at the clubhouse he walked…
CS: Are you driving slowly or something?
GZ: No, I pulled over and stopped before I called.
CS: Okay. Okay. [plays recording - "sh*t he's running] Okay. Full sprint, full-on flight…jogging, trotting…describe the run.
GZ: I don’t remember. I just, cause I was on the phone. It happened so quickly.
CS: Well, ah, I understand that, George, but I guess that it’s um…if it was a bicycle theft I could say okay, but it’s kinda important. I mean, was he running as to evade you, get away from you, ah, maybe got tired of getting wet in the rain. What kinda run was it? I mean, it sounds like he’s running as to get away from you.
GZ: I don’t know why he was running.
CS: But what kinda run was it? Can’t say?
GZ: I don't remember.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #92 on: July 16, 2012, 08:46:13 AM »

Cite? Maybe he didn't know who was listing, The T is hardly private?

GZ "These ArseHoles always get away?"  Hmmm, where?


Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #93 on: July 16, 2012, 08:51:27 AM »

Cite? Maybe he didn't know who was listing, The T is hardly private?
Oh please, you can't really be claiming this. And besides, he had no problem giving out his phone number just a few seconds later.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #94 on: July 16, 2012, 09:00:08 AM »

Zimmerman: It’s a home it’s 1950, oh crap I don’t want to give it all out, I don’t
know where this kid is.


I stand corrected - be warned that means you can only be correct one more time today.
Probably at 10:46:13 PM

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #95 on: July 16, 2012, 09:03:00 AM »
Oh please, you can't really be claiming this. And besides, he had no problem giving out his phone number just a few seconds later.


Cant believe what?The T is hardly private?

  Of course it isn't. its surrounded on three sides  by windows. IMO that's a key point in this case.  George could have no idea who was watching or listening.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #96 on: July 16, 2012, 09:05:11 AM »
IMO that's a key point in this case.  George could have no idea who was watching or listening.
Neither could Trayvon.

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #97 on: July 16, 2012, 09:07:01 AM »

Cant believe what?The T is hardly private?

  Of course it isn't. its surrounded on three sides  by windows. IMO that's a key point in this case.  George could have no idea who was watching or listening.

Excuse me...just HOW does someone who may be listening to a one sided phone conversation know the numbers 1950 correlate to an address, and that it is police on the other end?  Hmmmmm?

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #98 on: July 16, 2012, 09:09:22 AM »

So do you think he deliberately reversed himself during the subsequent walk through or do you belief that  being in the actual location jogged his memory?

I don't see the word immediately. as in I IMMEDIATELY fell

Yes, I think being in the actual location jogged his memory of the false narrative he had been pushing. 

No he did not say the word IMMEDIATELY.  He said, "at that point/ as soon as" etc. and twice adds teh detail of falling backwards, which seems odd. 

Previously he's had zero recall of what TM was supposed to be doing while he is staggering some 20 steps south before his "memory jog" as you call it.  Moving that distance while staggering takes time, and an aggressor would likely want to take advantage of that time as well when an opponent is visibly at a disadvantage.  GZ never described what TM was doing at this moment, before brought to the area by investigators.  Then, when at the area, he has vague recollections of what HE may have done but says nothing specific about what his aggressor did, and he walks some 25-30 feet south when the actual distance was more like 45-46 feet to the shell casing. 

Zimmerman....Yes, sir. Like I said I was already past that so I didn't see exactly where he came from but he was about where...(tape cut out again a bit) And I said I don't have a problem and I went to go grab my cell phone but my.... I left it in a different pocket. I went...I looked down at my pant pocket and he said, you got a problem now and then he was here (motions that he was right there next to him) and he punched me in the face
Investigator...right here (investigator moves up to the sidewalk away from the "t")
Zimmerman...right up around here, to be honest I don't remember exactly
Investigator....that's fine
Zimmerman... I think... I stumbled, and I fell down he pushed me down, somehow he got on top of me
Investigator...on the grass or on the cement?
Zimmerman: It was more over towards here (Zimmerman walks down into the dog path) I was trying to push him away from me and then he got on top of me somewhere around here (here he is looking down to where Trayvon really was, and hesitates for a moment, looks like he's trying to think of what to say) and, ah, that's where I started screaming for help. I started screaming help, help, as loud as I could and ah (stopping to think) that is when he grabbed...I tried to sit up and that's when he grabbed me by the head and he tried to slam my head down and...

Again, what was TM supposedly doing during this migration?  GZ seems to say no words were exchanged, he did not get into a clinch with the teen, and  only "tried to push him away" while pantomiming girlie slaps but claims no blows were landed.  Was TM trying to give him a hug and a kiss?  Was TM trying to detain George?  His explanation lacks the ring of truth, IMO and is inconsistent with earlier accounts, and describes a forward motion where previously he's stated on multiple occasions that he fell backwards.  Also of course he leaves out the reason his keychain flashlight was found lit on the ground south of the sidewalk he claims he was walking. 

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #99 on: July 16, 2012, 09:10:22 AM »
No matter the answer, it certainly puts the "he thought he was long gone" line in the round file.

Offline who007

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #100 on: July 16, 2012, 09:23:56 AM »
One more random thought regarding the call at the T - I thought it might strange Z would say "And when I walked back, that’s when he came out of the darkness and I guess he was upset that I called the police."

How would TM know Z had called the police?

Just weird.


Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #101 on: July 16, 2012, 09:29:16 AM »
Yes. The lead investigator even wrote that GZ's injuries were consistent with a life threatening violent encounter. No mention of the absurd notion of a tree or hedge being responsible.

You left out the lead-in word to this account, "marginally," thereby IMO deliberately taking the statement out of context.  The context was within a recommendation for charges to be filed against the person. 

per ABC news:

Quote
"These accusations come a day after a report by Chris Serino, the lead homicide investigator in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, was made public. Serino's report expressed strong skepticism of Zimmerman's account of the shooting, describing Zimmerman's injuries as "marginally consistent with a life threatening violent encounter."

Serino cast doubt on Zimmerman's version of events saying the "actions are inconsistent with those of a person who has stated he was in fear of another subject."

Nor did the detective seem impressed with Zimmerman's injuries, writing they "are marginally consistent with a life threatening violent episode."

And yes, there is no mention of a tree or hedge - that is speculation on my part since GZ's own account comes up so wanting, and the other witness is dead.  If you want me to dig up the body and hold a seance, let me know.  I'm speculating because it seems as valid a method as listening to George Zimmerman, IMO.  His stories don't add up, IMO and in the opinion of Serino, the man who looked him in the eye and saw his injuries and played the recording to dispatch for him, etc.  Do you claim your opinion is more valid than his? 

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #102 on: July 16, 2012, 09:34:20 AM »


  I'm speculating because it seems as valid a method as listening to George Zimmerman, IMO.  His stories don't add up, IMO and in the opinion of Serino, the man who looked him in the eye and saw his injuries and played the recording to dispatch for him, etc.  Do you claim your opinion is more valid than his? 



The evidence ( including Georges Statements) is more valid than your opinions.

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #103 on: July 16, 2012, 09:39:37 AM »
So, because he's wrong, he's right?

<snip>

I'll tell you straight up, wall-of-text doesn't intimidate me. I don't read them. Also, you don't have to keep quoting the same transcript over and over. I replied to it the first time. My reply has not changed. Reading the words and seeing his confidence level deteriorate regarding where he's at is a pretty big hint here.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #104 on: July 16, 2012, 09:47:12 AM »
I'll tell you straight up, wall-of-text doesn't intimidate me. I don't read them. Also, you don't have to keep quoting the same transcript over and over. I replied to it the first time. My reply has not changed. Reading the words and seeing his confidence level deteriorate regarding where he's at is a pretty big hint here.

You seem to have delved further into the wall than I could - congrats!

 

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