Author Topic: How far did SPD get into their investigation?  (Read 59275 times)

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Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #165 on: July 18, 2012, 02:48:22 PM »
Even with a NEN line, is it common to wait in a queue for a dispatcher?

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #166 on: July 18, 2012, 02:57:01 PM »
Actually, I think we should look to some of Doris Singleton's statements and questions the night of the shooting.   IMO, he might still be a little in shock or dazed from the altercation.   In his efforts to remember, he might be picking up some of her suggestions/questions. 

I know there are  transcripts out there for both Singleton and Serino and I will look for it but since The Crash, my computer can't access all of the links that I had saved.  ((Tried looking but computer froze up.  Frustrated.))

I have been in the hot seat for an interrogation.  It is not pleasant.  It is not a chat though the police will try to befriend you to put you at ease.  They are just so darned nice that you want to help them understand.  Then a gentle push does come to hard shove... and unlike Zimmerman, who has no reason to think that they didn't believe him and felt that he was justified, I knew better after about 20 minutes and asked for my lawyer.


Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2012, 03:10:19 PM »
When I first watched the re-enactment and VSA, I erroneously thought GZ was saying he was talking to the dispatcher as TM passed him at the clubhouse. In watching both again, I think what he actually said is consistent with or at least doesn’t contradict his written statement, and 2 accounts to Singleton. (Although, I’m still not sure about the underlined parts. Is he perhaps recalling the which way/direction questions after TM passed his car near the cut-through, and plugging them in here?).

VSA: So I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. I called the non-emergency line. As I was on the phone with the non-emergency line, he walked past my car, and I lost visual contact of him. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see or at least give him a direction of where he was headed. I said yes, so I pulled out [gestures with hand indicating turn right, down Twin Trees] and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. . . . When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address.

Re-Enactment: I drove past him and I went to the clubhouse. [Driver/Investigator: He caught up to you up here?] Yes, I called the non-emergency line and when I got through -- [seemingly reminding driver where to stop, GZ gestures with hand and says:] I parked at the clubhouse -- and they asked me where I was, and I told them the clubhouse and I think I gave them the address to the clubhouse. [Driver pulls into spot at clubhouse]. This is where I just stopped to call, to call, and then he walked past me. And he kept looking at my car. And still looking around at the houses and stuff. [How much time elapsed? “Gets through” to dispatcher] So then dispatcher said where did he go, what direction did he go in, and I said I don't know. I lost -- cause he cut down here and made a right, I guess it's Twin Trees Lane, he made a right in there -- and they said what direction did he go in and I said I don't know, I can't see him. And they said can you get to somewhere you can see him, and I said yeah I can. So I backed out. [Driver backs out, turns right on TTL, goes left around bend].

Regarding GZ’s cell phone records, I agree these should help a lot to clarify the timeline. If GZ was on hold for a few minutes, then TM would’ve had time to pass GZ while on hold at the clubhouse and walk ahead to the cut-through before GZ got there.


I still think he was parked during the entire call. He's describing things that happenrd before he actually dialed the NEN and combining them with things happening right there and then.  The underlined parts in your post are embellishments GZ makes to justify why he followed and why he got out of his car. Neither action is of course illegal.

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2012, 03:31:50 PM »

I still think he was parked during the entire call. He's describing things that happenrd before he actually dialed the NEN and combining them with things happening right there and then.  The underlined parts in your post are embellishments GZ makes to justify why he followed and why he got out of his car. Neither action is of course illegal.

If he was parked the whole time, why does he repeatedly say he was "by the clubhouse" when played the recording up to the "he's near the clubhouse now?/yeah, now he's coming at me" section, and why does he say during the VSA and during the "re-enactment" that he was directed via telephone to move to where he could see the teen, move away from the clubhouse parking lot?  Are these false memories and if so why are they occurring?

And if he was parked the whole time by the cut thru, how and when does TM pass him the first time?  And why does Dee Dee say he waited by the mail shed?  And why does TM double back, circle his car but then run 30 seconds later? 

And how is any of that more likely than what seems to happen when you mentally place GZ at the spot he marked on a map, at the first bend in TTL where he could observe the mailboxes?  Because then he is indeed "by the clubhouse" when TM approached him, he just didn't do so in an odd doubling back then running away fashion.  IMO he did it in a "walking home then running when followed by a car way."  (were GZ's headlights on or off?  We don't know.)  And why does GZ never seem to offer seeing TM run unless he is prompted to by investigators?    Had he forgotten that part?  He admits "following" with qualifications but never the running part.  Why would he do that?  Pills?  Memory loss?  Or some other reason?  Without the recording to NE, it's likely that SPD would never have known TM ran away, would they? 

Offline willisnewton

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2012, 04:11:49 PM »
Actually, I think we should look to some of Doris Singleton's statements and questions the night of the shooting.   IMO, he might still be a little in shock or dazed from the altercation.   In his efforts to remember, he might be picking up some of her suggestions/questions. 

I know there are  transcripts out there for both Singleton and Serino and I will look for it but since The Crash, my computer can't access all of the links that I had saved.  ((Tried looking but computer froze up.  Frustrated.))

I have been in the hot seat for an interrogation.  It is not pleasant.  It is not a chat though the police will try to befriend you to put you at ease.  They are just so darned nice that you want to help them understand.  Then a gentle push does come to hard shove... and unlike Zimmerman, who has no reason to think that they didn't believe him and felt that he was justified, I knew better after about 20 minutes and asked for my lawyer.


I agree that DS should not have prompted GZ so many times and so many ways.  She's narco, not homicide and judging by her appearance not a 30 year veteran either. 

The "purpose" IMO of the voice stress test was not to test the stress in GZ's voice.  It was to get GZ to tell the story all over again from the start in his own words to someone who seemed less interested.  (any fool knows those tests are worthless in a courtroom and prove little or nothing.  It wasn't even a real polygraph test) It's possible Serino arrived at the cop shop by then and reviewed some of DS's interview and decided they needed a fresh start, so to speak. 

But I don't think she put false memories into GZ's head.  But she did start to point out potential inconsistencies and prompt GZ to start "filling in the blanks" when and where needed to make a more coherent story.  Case in point is that the first time GZ tells the story, he passed TM by FT's house and then the next thng you know GZ has "pulled over" and TM is doubling back/circling.  He's left out the events at the clubhouse for whatever reason and Singleton leads him back through it but only after she's gone and fetched a map. 

Here is the first telling:

Quote

GZ: Um, and this time, I was leaving to go to the grocery store and like I said, I saw him, um, walking in the neighborhood - the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff. And he was walking leisurely and looking at the houses and, um, so I just pulled my car to the side and I called the non-emergency line and, um…
DS: Were you, were you armed at this point?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You were already armed?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay.
GZ: And, um, I called the non-emergency line and I just reported that there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood. Um, the dispatcher or whoever answered the phone asked me where they went, and I said I wasn’t sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses and, ah, he said well can you tell me what direction he went and I said not really. Um, and then all of a sudden I see him circling my car and…and then he goes back into the darkness. So…
DS: Just a minute, you’re out, you pull out of your house, and you’re heading down the road as you’re looking at him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: You’re on the phone and he dips between 2 houses, is that what you mean?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: So you lose sight of him?
GZ: Yes, ma’am. And then he comes back out and circles my car. While I’m on the phone with the police.
DS: Okay, is he saying anything to you?
GZ: I couldn’t hear him, my windows were up.
DS: Okay
GZ: As soon as I saw him coming up I rolled up my windows and I stayed on the phone with dispatch.
DS: Okay. He… your car was running?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: The lights were on?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay, so he knew somebody was in this car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Is he walking completely around the car?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.
DS: Okay.
GZ: Um, and dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on. I…
DS: So you’d come off your street and gotten onto another street?
GZ: Yes ma’am.
DS: At some point.
GZ: Yes ma’am. It goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood. I didn’t know the names of the street. Um, or where he went, so I got out of my car to look for the street sign and to see if I could see where he cut through so I could tell the police.
DS: So after he circled your car he disappeared again?
GZ: Yes, ma’am.


So IMO the "dispatch told me to get another visual so i moved" idea comes here, but it's told as a means to explain him getting out of his car, not moving from the clubhouse parking lot.  By the time of the video "reenactment" this "i was directed to move to get a visual" memory has to occur twice. 

This is the nature of his confusion, and a potential source point, IMO.  But the activity itself is just a false narrative from the get-go, IMO.  GZ wants an excuse for getting out of his car besides the fact that the teen just ran to get away from him.  That paints him as more the aggressor in the general sense, so he turns it around on TM instead, and leaves out the running away part. 

Offline AJ

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2012, 10:21:04 PM »
Cited article is completely off-topic, and refers to IMPLANTED false memories.  Not ones self-genereated that fit a poorly executed alibi for a crime.

<wall of text ignored>

You either can't read, or completely skipped over the text below the url in my post. I was not using that source to say "this is exactly what happened to George."


Offline TalkLeft

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2012, 11:53:37 PM »
I've deleted some of the insults and one absurdly long post by Willis quoting almost the entire transcript of Singleton's interview. Willis, you have made this argument numerous times. It's chattering to keep doing it and it's objectionable to say that readers who don't agree with you have something wrong with them.

You are a commenter here, with opinions just like every other commenter. Your bias against Zimmerman is what makes so many people react negatively to your comments. I understand you feel frustrated but it's not because you aren't getting your point of view across. It's because your bias makes people reject what you write even before finishing reading it.

I don't mean to pick on you. And I've deleted many comments mocking you. But I think you bring it on yourself by repeatedly pointing out minor inconsistencies, insisting they add up to Zmmerman lying.  As well as by relying on your own charts and calculations as evidence for your point of view.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #172 on: July 19, 2012, 06:53:54 AM »
Your bias against Zimmerman is what makes so many people react negatively to your comments.
OK, wait a minute. I think people can use their own minds to look at the evidence, and, based on their own knowledge and experiences, arrive at a different opinion of how the evidence fits together without being accused of being 'biased against Zimmerman'.

I don't assume that any GZ supporter is 'biased against Martin', I assume he has arrived at an obviously wrong a different opinion based on the evidence. I'd appreciate the same consideration in return.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #173 on: July 19, 2012, 07:17:27 AM »
Willis seems to be able to fight his/her own battles. Let the comments stand?

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #174 on: July 19, 2012, 07:22:15 AM »
Willis seems to be able to fight his/her own battles. Let the comments stand?

If the hostess were to allow the comments to stand, how would she choose? Would it be all of them? Just the (IMO crazy) stuff Willis says? The milder posts mocking Willis in return?

If she leaves them she runs the risk of the place turning into a junior high cafeteria after someone screams food fight.

I know, I've seen me do it.
 8)


Much better to maintain fairly tight order from the start. I have another place to go to when I feel like flinging the oatmeal against the wall.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #175 on: July 19, 2012, 08:35:11 AM »
If he was parked the whole time, why does he repeatedly say he was "by the clubhouse" when played the recording up to the "he's near the clubhouse now?/yeah, now he's coming at me" section, and why does he say during the VSA and during the "re-enactment" that he was directed via telephone to move to where he could see the teen, move away from the clubhouse parking lot?  Are these false memories and if so why are they occurring?

And if he was parked the whole time by the cut thru, how and when does TM pass him the first time?  And why does Dee Dee say he waited by the mail shed?  And why does TM double back, circle his car but then run 30 seconds later? 


You make a point here that many seem to accept, but I have questions about since Z did his walk thru.  During the NEN call, he is asked by the dispatcher if TM is near the clubhouse now and Z responds affirmatively.  I think people are mistakenly coming to the conclusion that Z is parked near the T and TM is coming at him from the direction of the clubhouse implying that Z had passed him in his vehicle.  I don't think this is the case and here are the points I would make.

Right before Z says "yeah, now he's coming towards me", the dispatcher had actually asked him several things "Thats the clubhouse?  Do you know what the ... Is he near the clubhouse now?".  The exchange right before these questions were asked, the dispatcher was repeating the address Z gave asking if it was 1111 or 111 and Z said thats the clubhouse.  Given the context of the conversation and multiple questions raised prior to the "yeah", I don't think its safe to assume that Z meant that TM was at the clubhouse and walking towards the T where he was parked.  I think his response, given his other statements is that "yeah", we are near the clubhouse (he can see it from where he's parked and its the address I just gave you) and now this kid is coming towards me.  I don't think he's saying on the call that TM is at the clubhouse and is walking away from the clubhouse towards me.

Before Z's walk thru was released, I always had the impression above, that Z had driven past the clubhouse then saw TM around the mailboxes and drove past him, then parked near the T to observe him, which would mean that this exchange with the dispatcher matched the idea that TM was closer to the clubhouse and walking towards his vehicle.  I think with the description in the walk thru, this idea is incorrect.  TM walks past him as he's parked at the clubhouse and Z loses sight of him.  Z mentions the dispatcher telling him to get where he can see him, but I think this happens before or right at the beginning of his connection with the dispatcher and the thought is one thats in his mind, not one that is spoken by the dispatcher.  Z backs out and makes his turn onto TTL driving slowly, looking for where TM is.  I don't think it makes sense that he would knowingly drive past him if he were trying to keep an eye on him, because if he drove past, TM could take off running the other way and he'd probably never see him again.  IF you are trying to keep an eye on someone, you stay behind them and continue moving the same direction they are.  As he's driving slowly, he eventually spots TM out in front of him and I think this is the point that Z describes in his walk thru that TM was at the T (I'm assuming he had run to get there and this is one of the running events Dee Dee describes).  Its TM coming back from the T where Z describes TM coming towards his vehicle and to check him out.

I think given what is in the NEN call, this is the most logical scenario of how Z moved from the clubhouse to TTL, while also fitting the description of what he saw.  I think analysis of the background sounds on the NEN call fit more with him moving away from the clubhouse at the very start of that call and all the descriptions of TM's actions that follow are after he was already on TTL with TM out in front of him. 

The one caveat to this would be which direction Z's vehicle was facing as it was parked on TTL.  In the scenario I describe his car would have to be facing towards the T, not towards the clubhouse.  Is it a known fact which direction the car was facing that night?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #176 on: July 19, 2012, 09:51:30 AM »
I think given what is in the NEN call, this is the most logical scenario of how Z moved from the clubhouse to TTL, while also fitting the description of what he saw.  I think analysis of the background sounds on the NEN call fit more with him moving away from the clubhouse at the very start of that call and all the descriptions of TM's actions that follow are after he was already on TTL with TM out in front of him. 

The one caveat to this would be which direction Z's vehicle was facing as it was parked on TTL.  In the scenario I describe his car would have to be facing towards the T, not towards the clubhouse.  Is it a known fact which direction the car was facing that night?
Yes - I've posted this before, but this is the most logical scenario, at least in the sense that it more clearly matches up with the NEN call.

Only problem is, it doesn't match George's multiple statements, both in the video re-enactment and in the 29 Feb interviews with detectives, that Martin walked past him while he was parked -at the Clubhouse-, and that he could see Martin turn right on to TTL, and that the next time he saw Martin was when he was parked at on TTL with Martin half-way up to the cut-through.

Is it possible George is lying about this because he thought it'd sound 'bad' if he was following Martin in his car? Maybe he thought (wrongly) that it would be illegal or make him responsible for what happened afterwards?

George's car was moved before anyone took photos of it, etc. I don't recall seeing any statements in discovery about which way the truck was parked, but I believe (not 100% sure) that George has noted that the headlights were somewhat lighting up the cut-through, so I've always assumed the truck was facing towards the cut-through, not towards the clubhouse.

Offline unitron

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #177 on: July 19, 2012, 05:30:12 PM »
It's known which way Zimmerman says his truck was facing (east, toward the "T"), but so far we have no independent corroboration of that.

Someone who spent a lot of time trying to decipher what the various lights in the various clubhouse videos were has a theory that involves several U-turns as Zimmerman drives back and forth past the clubhouse without stopping there and finally makes a U-turn on Twin Trees to wind up facing west toward the clubhouse.

I have yet to see any indication that the prosecution has done any serious analysis of the various clubhouse videos or that they intend to introduce any of them as evidence of anything in particular.

Offline leftwig

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #178 on: July 19, 2012, 05:52:50 PM »
Facing east seems to match up well if you combine his account in the walk-thru and the NEN call assuming he leaves the clubhouse right around the time the call connects.  He never mentions being parked at the clubhouse on the NEN, so I think that makes the most sense.

I'm familiar with the theory done of the lighting seen in the various clubhouse videos.  I can't say what they suggest is impossible, but I found it to be inconclusive.  I doubt any theory gets put forth from the prosecution based on those videos.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: How far did SPD get into their investigation?
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2012, 06:12:23 PM »
It's known which way Zimmerman says his truck was facing (east, toward the "T"), but so far we have no independent corroboration of that.

Someone who spent a lot of time trying to decipher what the various lights in the various clubhouse videos were has a theory that involves several U-turns as Zimmerman drives back and forth past the clubhouse without stopping there and finally makes a U-turn on Twin Trees to wind up facing west toward the clubhouse.

I have yet to see any indication that the prosecution has done any serious analysis of the various clubhouse videos or that they intend to introduce any of them as evidence of anything in particular.

Perhaps the state , having  weak case, decided to investigate what information/ theories could be derived from the blogosphere.The problem with this approach of course the the unmanageable volume of available speculation.

 Is it possible that the state intended the clubhouse video as a filtering device to limit the search to bloggers with certain analytic capabilities.If at some point in the proceeding the state could call for bloggers speculation:

On the Application to consider your fantasies as a viable theory SOF 24R CT rev2

Q1. How long have you studied the clubhouse tapes?
    Any answer over 30 seconds and under 5 hours would be considered a pass with the petitioner exhibiting inquisitiveness  but not obsession.

Q2. How long have you discussed the case based on your clubhouse tape observations?
  Any answer over 45 seconds would immediately disqualify that particular authors thesis - however the prosecution might try to get them assigned to the jury pool.






 

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