Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 218265 times)

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Offline Screamin Jay

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George as a Witness
« on: July 07, 2012, 03:28:52 PM »
Some say George will have to testify for SYG. The judge is hinting that George's circumstantial, hearsay is not sufficient. The burden of proof for murder in self-defense is definite, beyond a doubt.
My interest is in the jury trial. Will the jury be presented with the hours of interrogations and re-enactment?

[Modified by TalkLeft to delete erroneous transcript posted. ]
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 11:57:48 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline cboldt

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2012, 03:57:06 PM »
The burden of proof for murder in self-defense is definite, beyond a doubt.

1. What is "murder in self defense?"

2. Did you in invent a new legal standard for proof?

3. You did not say which side has the burden(s).

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2012, 04:26:40 PM »
I really goofed. Caught it myself right after posting.
The defense is preparing an affirmative defense called Stand Your Ground. The burden of proof beyond doubt is on O'Mara and company at this hearing. No jury. If they win, there will be no trial. Right?
Let's try "killing in self-defense", "shooting in self-defense", "homocide in self-defense", "manslaughter in self-defense." Anything but murder!
What I was trying to say is SYG as a defense against the murder charge. My typing fingers got tied up. Is there a way to make corrections or delete old posts?

That is incorrect the burden of proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt its preponderance of the evidence. Try reading Jeralyns extensive research on the main board.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2012, 03:07:30 AM »
You goofed here too ... "7:11:51 The back entrance…f*ckin' coons". I've heard it & it's obvious to me it's as GZ says .... "f*ckin' punks".
I don't know how 'obvious' it is - I wouldn't bet my life on it - but FWIW I also hear 'fu*king punks'. We have no evidence that GZ was a racist, but even if we did, he could be the biggest racist on the planet and I still wouldn't believe he'd actually say something like that, out loud, on the phone, to a complete stranger, working in a professional capacity. No way.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2012, 03:18:37 AM »
George says that, after the shooting, he straddled Martin's body (already facing down, I believe) and pushed his hands 'away from his body', because he was worried Martin had been carrying a weapon.

I believe this is also confirmed by Witness #6, who in the second interview at the station, says he say Martin face down, arms kind of spread out, 'like the chalk outline of a victim at a crime scene'. I personally imagined something like this.



But Martin was found with his hands and arms underneath his body.

How did his arms get underneath him? Was Martin still alive and able to move?

Offline Cylinder

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #5 on: July 08, 2012, 04:06:30 AM »
How did his arms get underneath him? Was Martin still alive and able to move?

Ofc. Alaya

Quote
I noticed that there was, what appeared to be a black male wearing a gray sweater, blue jeans, and white/red sneakers laying face down on the ground. The black male had his hands underneath the body. I attempted to get a response from the black male, but was met with negative results. At that time Sgt. Raimondo arrived and attempted to get a pulse on the black male but none was found. At that time, Sgt. Raimondo an I turned the black male over and began CPR. Sgt. Raimondo did breaths and I did compressions.

Zimmerman:

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...and I got on his back and I moved his arms apart cause when he was hitting me in the face and head I thought he had something in his hands - so I just moved his hands apart...


W6
 
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FDLE: Again, referring to the hands real quick for the sake of the audio recording, you were indicating a hand position kind of as if you were swimming, with a hand forward and a hand back.

W6: Correct, correct.

FDLE: That's a face-down position.

W6: Correct.

 
Zimmerman claims Martin was vocalizing near the time he checked Martin's hands, so it is possible that Martin moved them himself. Ofc. Alaya could be mistaken as the scene was somewhat dark - so much so that SPD gives varying descriptions of Martin's body. Zimmerman himself could have moved the arms back to their position, I suppose, though he was being observed by W14 around this time. Cutcher states that Zimmerman was over Martin's face-down body "with his hands on the kid's back."
 
 

Offline AJ

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2012, 04:07:42 AM »
But Martin was found with his hands and arms underneath his body.

How did his arms get underneath him? Was Martin still alive and able to move?

We do not know this to be true. Officer Ricardo Ayala wrote in his statement that the hands were under the body, but there are issues. One such issue is that he wrote the report some 7+ hours after the incident. Another issue is that he was one of the two to give CPR - so taking notes immediately was probably out of the question. Another issue is that Officer Ayala did not mention in his report that a bystander was asked for Vaseline and cellophane to cover the chest wound - which would be a detail you'd expect someone to remember. I'm not saying Officer Ayala is doing anything malicious, but I don't think we can rely on his word alone - his memory is subject to flaws just as everyone else's is.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2012, 10:41:47 AM »
Officer Ayala is a law enforcement officer. A trained professional. He does this kind of stuff, you know, for a living. Absent any really convincing evidence, I'm going to take a trained LEO's word about what he saw.

I don't think the question is 'were Martin's hands found beneath him'? I think the question is, 'how did Martin's hands get beneath him, since we have witnesses putting Martins' hands out to the side, and a LEO saying that Martins' hands were beneath him.



Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #8 on: July 08, 2012, 10:55:16 AM »
Officer Ayala is a law enforcement officer. A trained professional. He does this kind of stuff, you know, for a living. Absent any really convincing evidence, I'm going to take a trained LEO's word about what he saw.

That you would unquestionably accept, a minor clause about an insignificant detail , included in long statement of more substantive information  is not particularly surprising. That is, if it supports your opinion.

I don't think the question is 'were Martin's hands found beneath him'? I think the question is, 'how did Martin's hands get beneath him, since we have witnesses putting Martins' hands out to the side, and a LEO saying that Martins' hands were beneath him.

The Mystery of the century. Who cares?





Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #9 on: July 08, 2012, 11:31:09 AM »
That you would unquestionably accept, a minor clause about an insignificant detail , included in long statement of more substantive information  is not particularly surprising. That is, if it supports your opinion.

The Mystery of the century. Who cares?
In as much as it could support George's statement that Martin was talking after being shot, I would expect you would.





[/quote]

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #10 on: July 08, 2012, 11:34:20 AM »
In as much as it could support George's statement that Martin was talking after being shot, I would expect you would.

I don't care if Martin was talking after being shot. It is not relevant.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #11 on: July 08, 2012, 11:35:10 AM »
Officer Ayala is a law enforcement officer. A trained professional. He does this kind of stuff, you know, for a living. Absent any really convincing evidence, I'm going to take a trained LEO's word about what he saw.

I don't think the question is 'were Martin's hands found beneath him'? I think the question is, 'how did Martin's hands get beneath him, since we have witnesses putting Martins' hands out to the side, and a LEO saying that Martins' hands were beneath him.

Actually, the real question is how many trained professionals it takes to decide whether Trayvon was wearing jeans, khakis or tan shorts.
In other words, even LEOs make mistakes.

Offline AJ

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #12 on: July 08, 2012, 01:13:38 PM »
In as much as it could support George's statement that Martin was talking after being shot, I would expect you would.

Are you insinuating that Mr. Martin couldn't have said a word after he was shot? I'll assume you are for this reply. The words I'm about to quote are from a registered nurse anesthetist. I'll quote both individuals in this mini-conversation so you see the full context. Make of it what you will, but I will note that this person has stayed neutral in this case - only commenting on things relating to medical concerns.

NOTE: What I'm about to quote may seem cold and gruesome. If you are easily offended or become queasy regarding detailed medical information, I respectfully ask that you skip over what is quoted below.

Quote
Quote
The bullet shattered, hollow point, and I'm guessing that is why there is no exit wound. Both lungs collapsed. No way he could have formed a sentence, much less a flippant remark such as you got me. jmo

    I disagree. The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

    I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #13 on: July 08, 2012, 01:35:28 PM »
Are you insinuating that Mr. Martin couldn't have said a word after he was shot?

Couldn't have? Of course not. I'm not a doctor, I have no idea what Martin could or couldn't have said after having been shot in the chest. I'm sure medical experts will testify at trial. Until then, we go by what information as we have.

If Martin had 'as long as' 5 seconds of consciousness, I'm wondering if that was long enough to utter his dying phrase 'you got me' or 'you got it' (or possibly, 'you shot me'?), fall over face down, Martin gets off, straddles, pushes hands out, and then Martin moves his hands back under him before the cops get there.

I'm assuming your registered nurse has ER experience - anyway she would have insight on body movement in a case like this?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #14 on: July 08, 2012, 01:36:52 PM »
Can someone else help me with something? I would have sworn I saw a statement that George's gun was on the ground after the shooting, but I believe George says he holstered his weapon and told the first police officer that he had a gun on him. Am I just making that up?

 

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