Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 215181 times)

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Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #105 on: July 23, 2012, 03:54:52 AM »
You keep on repeating punched in the face 'dozens of times' Please show me where GZ has claimed this or stop posting your strawman baloney.
Sure. Apparently you didn't listen to you guys' own testimony.

Quote
ZIMMERMAN: Yes, sir. He continued to punch me in the head.

HANNITY: How many times would you estimate that he punched you?

ZIMMERMAN: Several. More than a dozen.
So it wasn't 'dozens of time', it was at least 13 punches. I'll be more precise next time.

 ::)

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #106 on: July 23, 2012, 03:57:14 AM »
The Fulton-Martin's dispute that it is TM crying for help on that 911 which can be negated by the FBI and their report that the voice is inconclusive due to the quality of the recording. 

I don't think the parents will cancel each other out though.  I think that Sybrina Fulton would win that one.  Her son is dead.   IMO, everything Robert Zimmerman Sr. says will come with a taint since his son is the one on trial.


Three points

I agree with the political pressure being the biggest obstacle to GZ's acquittal  - that perceptions need t be broken and I suspect the defense is going to need to start getting information out about Treyvon. In particular they need to develop and justify a theory about why TM launched his assault.

I wonder if the State will call DeeDee to testify. They don't seem to have a clue as to what she will say. AFAIK she has never been examined by the SPD. If and when she is that interview will make its way to discovery.

Don't you think that most people will conclude that the guy who was getting beaten up for 40 + seconds was the guy screaming for help-?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #107 on: July 23, 2012, 04:01:39 AM »
I wonder if the State will call DeeDee to testify. They don't seem to have a clue as to what she will say. AFAIK she has never been examined by the SPD. If and when she is that interview will make its way to discovery.
I can't see the State calling DeeDee. Her testimony is shaky, at best, and given her...tenuous, shall we say,  grasp of English it'd be a nightmare having her on the stand. Any good defense lawyer would make mince meat out of her.

Quote
Don't you think that most people will conclude that the guy who was getting beaten up for 40 + seconds was the guy screaming for help-?
Possibly. Or they might conclude that the guy screaming is the kid trying to not get shot. Especially when the screams end exactly with the shot.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #108 on: July 23, 2012, 04:03:48 AM »
Sure. Apparently you didn't listen to you guys' own testimony.
So it wasn't 'dozens of time', it was at least 13 punches. I'll be more precise next time.

 ::)

An how many of these punches landed? How many were blocked or partially blocked?
You obfuscate the salient  point . George Zimmerman shows a number of facial and head injuries that support his accounting of an assault.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #109 on: July 23, 2012, 04:12:07 AM »
IPossibly. Or they might conclude that the guy screaming is the kid trying to not get shot. Especially when the screams end exactly with the shot.

Gee that is pretty thin gruel to launch and assumption on since 
- No witness saw the gun.
- TM made no outcry about a gun.
- GZ testified that the gun was drawn at the last moment.

and beside your personal disbelief of the the rather unremarkable probability that Zimmerman stopped screaming as he fired your evidence is......

What? Please tell me you have something.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #110 on: July 23, 2012, 04:13:53 AM »
An how many of these punches landed? How many were blocked or partially blocked?
You obfuscate the salient  point . George Zimmerman shows a number of facial and head injuries that support his accounting of an assault.
I'm afraid, my friend, that we're always going to disagree on this one.  ;) I simply don't see evidence of 'more than a dozen' punches and head being repeatedly slammed into a cement sidewalk.

Not a single witness is going to testify to seeing anything about punching/head slamming etc.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #111 on: July 23, 2012, 04:49:03 AM »

I simply don't see evidence of 'more than a dozen' punches and head being repeatedly slammed into a cement sidewalk.

Not a single witness is going to testify to seeing anything about punching/head slamming etc.
Why would each of a dozen punches leave evidence.?  Its a strawman that you built while conveniently overlooking the fact that even the SFD found Georges statements consistent with his injuries.

So again - whats your evidence that Zimmerman's testimony is untrue? Speculations about lying EMTs and Doctors? A few non probative photos? Please do you think the prosecutor is going to get up and dispute grisley photos with the ones you posted. Using your 'logic' we could find peaceful post mortem pictures of Martin and dismiss the whole case.


We don't know what the witnesses particularly witness #6 will say under the questions poised by the defense. We just have his unshakable observation the Treyvon was totally in control despite a grueling 45 minute adverserial, grilling by the SPD. We have one witness who once again gave an immediate statement with full confidence that the other witnesses would back him up- George Zimmerman.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #112 on: July 23, 2012, 04:53:31 AM »
Gee that is pretty thin gruel to launch and assumption on since 
- No witness saw the gun.
- TM made no outcry about a gun.
- GZ testified that the gun was drawn at the last moment.

and beside your personal disbelief of the the rather unremarkable probability that Zimmerman stopped screaming as he fired your evidence is......

What? Please tell me you have something.

Wanted to add that Johns testimony about TM's action is not consistant with the actions of a man trying to control a gun. I'm sure he'll be asked that question


Its so funny that all you do is tear down facts that support the Defense -you never respond with any evidence that supports the prosecutions case. Wonder why?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #113 on: July 23, 2012, 05:38:53 AM »
Why would each of a dozen punches leave evidence.?  Its a strawman that you built while conveniently overlooking the fact that even the SFD found Georges statements consistent with his injuries.
They said it was marginally consistent, and they eventually charged him so I'd say the SPD's (not SFD?) opinion on the matter is somewhat at odds with yours.

So again - whats your evidence that Zimmerman's testimony is untrue?
Injuries not consistent with the beating GZ says he was subject to. Inconsistencies in what he was doing, how he ended up running into Martin, in how the fight started, what happened during the fight, all which seem aimed at portraying Martin as the sole aggressor and George as completely minding-my-own-business innocent. Only minute specs of blood on Martin (including hands) and on George's clothes. Calls for help that end instantaneously with the gunshot.

Any one of the above would be enough for me to think that George is being less than truthful about the encounter. What possible need would he have to lie about events of the evening unless he was trying to cover something up.

Now - I think it's possible that George introduced the inconsistencies out of concern for 'looking' guilty if, for example, he admitted to following Martin in his car, or if he admitted that he spent a couple of minutes walking around looking to see where Martin went. But if he's going to insist on a story that is bordering on impossible, I'm going to assume the falsehoods are on purpose.

We don't know what the witnesses particularly witness #6 will say under the questions poised by the defense. We just have his unshakable observation the Treyvon was totally in control despite a grueling 45 minute adverserial, grilling by the SPD. We have one witness who once again gave an immediate statement with full confidence that the other witnesses would back him up- George Zimmerman.
'Grueling, grilling, adversial' interview with the SPD? I find it funny that you feel the need to include various exaggerated adjectives to describe a routine witness interview - I guess you need to do so to try and bolster your case or something. Please point out which parts of the interview where the witness was 'grilled' or otherwise faced 'adversial' detectives.

While you're at it, please point out where in his 'grueling, 45-minute interview' the witness claims that Martin was 'totally in control'.

'Cause what I hear him say is that he couldn't tell who was yelling. I hear him say he just initially assumed it was the guy on the bottom, but that he couldn't tell, in part because it was so dark - he actually stresses several times how dark it was. I hear him say all he could see is that they were in an altercation on the ground. I hear him say he couldn't hear any other sounds other than 'help'. I hear him say the guys were 'wrestling'. I hear him say 'they're struggling' and he can't see what's going on.

Offline Darby2

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #114 on: July 23, 2012, 06:13:30 AM »


The Fulton-Martin's dispute that it is TM crying for help on that 911 which can be negated by the FBI and their report that the voice is inconclusive due to the quality of the recording. 

I don't think the parents will cancel each other out though.  I think that Sybrina Fulton would win that one.  Her son is dead.   IMO, everything Robert Zimmerman Sr. says will come with a taint since his son is the one on trial.



I disagree. When the tape was played for Tracy Martin he did not identify the voice as trayvons.  It was only after crumps involvement that his story changed.

Offline Darby2

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #115 on: July 23, 2012, 06:17:32 AM »
Dragon ash.  What is your theory than as to why George shot Trayvon?

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #116 on: July 23, 2012, 06:25:00 AM »
Quote
Why would each of a dozen punches leave evidence.?  Its a strawman that you built while conveniently overlooking the fact that even the SFD found Georges statements consistent with his injuries.
They said it was marginally consistent, and they eventually charged him so I'd say the SPD's (not SFD?) opinion on the matter is somewhat at odds with yours.
Marginally consistent is consistent - not as you seem to conclude inconsistent. As in
Quote
The officer couldn't write a ticket because his measurement of my speed was marginally consistent with driving under the speed limit

Offline Kyreth

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #117 on: July 23, 2012, 06:28:45 AM »

Injuries not consistent with the beating GZ says he was subject to. Inconsistencies in what he was doing, how he ended up running into Martin, in how the fight started, what happened during the fight, all which seem aimed at portraying Martin as the sole aggressor and George as completely minding-my-own-business innocent. Only minute specs of blood on Martin (including hands) and on George's clothes. Calls for help that end instantaneously with the gunshot.


None of that refutes George's story though.
 1)  It doesn't take getting hit that hard after a broken nose to think you're getting hurt a lot more than you really are (those head injuries are more than enough to make some people think their head feels like it's going to explode even if they aren't serious). 
2)  You need to be specific on the inconsistencies, because I don't see anything that refutes George's story of how he ran into Martin and how the fight started.
3) There's lots of legitimate explanations for the blood specks.
4) Sudden loud noises have a tendency to shut people up instantly, so that is evidence of nothing.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #118 on: July 23, 2012, 06:30:24 AM »
Dragon ash.  What is your theory than as to why George shot Trayvon?
Than --> then. Than is used to compare one thing to another. Then is a marker of time.

I think George wigged out and shot him. I do not think George had any reasonable basis for being in fear of 'great bodily harm or death'.

Note that I don't think George acted intentionally or with a 'depraved mind', so I don't necessarily agree with the murder two charge.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #119 on: July 23, 2012, 06:39:33 AM »

Quote from: Lousy1 on Today at 06:49:03 AM
So again - whats your evidence that Zimmerman's testimony is untrue? Injuries not consistent with the beating GZ says he was subject to. Inconsistencies in what he was doing, how he ended up running into Martin, in how the fight started, what happened during the fight, all which seem aimed at portraying Martin as the sole aggressor and George as completely minding-my-own-business innocent. Only minute specs of blood on Martin (including hands) and on George's clothes. Calls for help that end instantaneously with the gunshot.

Any one of the above would be enough for me to think that George is being less than truthful about the encounter. What possible need would he have to lie about events of the evening unless he was trying to cover something up.

Now - I think it's possible that George introduced the inconsistencies out of concern for 'looking' guilty if, for example, he admitted to following Martin in his car, or if he admitted that he spent a couple of minutes walking around looking to see where Martin went. But if he's going to insist on a story that is bordering on impossible, I'm going to assume the falsehoods are on purpose.



Injuries not consistent with the beating GZ says he was subject to? In your mind only. Not what the SPD says. That charges were brought is not evidence contradicting the SPD characterization.


Conjectures about inconsistencies in Zimmerman's statements can be used to impeach GZs statements while being weighed with the evidence that supports them.
They are not evidence of a crime.
The state is required to produce evidence.

So other than one - unsupported conjecture - the state has no evidence that George Zimmerman brandished a gun before the fatal shot? I would love to hear the states opening statement.

 

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