Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 278509 times)

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Offline Kyreth

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #120 on: July 23, 2012, 06:42:01 AM »
More people die each year in the US from traumatic brain injuries than from gunshots.  If his head was hitting concrete, there's legitimate reason to fear great bodily harm right there, even if your injuries aren't that bad; you don't know how bad the next one will be.

Offline Darby2

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #121 on: July 23, 2012, 06:43:04 AM »
Than --> then. Than is used to compare one thing to another. Then is a marker of time.

I think George wigged out and shot him. I do not think George had any reasonable basis for being in fear of 'great bodily harm or death'.

Note that I don't think George acted intentionally or with a 'depraved mind', so I don't necessarily agree with the murder two charge.

Under what circumstance do you think he wigged out?   While he was being beaten? Etc

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #122 on: July 23, 2012, 06:43:14 AM »
Quote
You need to be specific on the inconsistencies, because I don't see anything that refutes George's story of how he ran into Martin and how the fight started.
Really? Let's see - in no particular order:

1) George says there was 'less than 30 seconds' between hanging up with the NEN dispatch and running into Martin. Call record and witness statements are pretty conclusive that the gap is at least two minutes.

2) George's testimony in interviews and the reenactment video about where he was during the call and Martin's actions (specifically the 'came back and circled my truck' bit) is pretty much impossible. There are any number of alternative scenarios that match, but George's story isn't one of them.

3) George claims to have been west of the T when approached by Martin, started walking backwards, then was hit in the face, yet he claims to have stumbled -forward- to the south.

4) George makes no mention of any stumbling etc in his first interviews - every interview is consistent with 'I was knocked back on to the grass with the first punch'. It's only when he gets to the scene in the reenactment that he does some ridiculous 'arms waving swimming motion' and says he 'thinks he stumbled, tried to push Martin off me'.

5) In every single interview he says Martin ran up the cut-through and turned right (south) towards the back entrance. He said in the initial interviews that he didn't know why Martin ran. Now he claims that Martin wasn't 'running', no he was 'skipping', and he could tell from his car that Martin wasn't running out of fear.  ::)

6) He claims to have been able to pin Martin's arm with his right hand, and with the same hand reach back and beneath him, pull out his gun, aim and fire a perfect bull's eye - with the same arm! - while keeping Martin's arm pinned. Martin's *right* arm is free this entire time, yet Martin seems strangly reluctant to try and stop getting shot.

7) George claims his arms and hands were free the entire time, yet George has no defensive wounds, and George tells us nothing about what he was doing with his hands/arms while getting punched 'more than a dozen times' or having his head slammed into the concrete. This isn't an inconsistency per se, just seems exceedingly odd, particarly since George outweighs Martin by a good margin.

8 ) Martin is able to sneak up on George from behind...but issues a verbal challenge to George, giving George time to back up and try to reach for a phone etc. This seems like an odd thing to do if Martin's intent was to sucker-punch George.

9) George says that after following the possibly drugged, possibly armed, up-to-no-good suspicious-looking 'effin' punk', he comes face to face with Martin - and the first thing he tried to do was 'dial 911'. I can't stress enough how ridiculous this is. Who stands there dialing 911 with the effin' punk drugged up armed bad guy is standing right there in front of you? Again - not an inconsistency per se, but it definitely defies all logic and common sense.

That's probably enough to get you started.

More people die each year in the US from traumatic brain injuries than from gunshots.  If his head was hitting concrete, there's legitimate reason to fear great bodily harm right there, even if your injuries aren't that bad; you don't know how bad the next one will be.
Please cite the leading causes of 'traumatic brain injuries. Hint: It ain't 'getting beaten up'.

I'm sure George wigged out while in the fight. Surprisingly, the law doesn't let you kill somebody just because you're in a fight.

« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:52:38 AM by dragon ash »

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #123 on: July 23, 2012, 06:46:55 AM »
Than --> then. Than is used to compare one thing to another. Then is a marker of time.

I think George wigged out and shot him. I do not think George had any reasonable basis for being in fear of 'great bodily harm or death'.



Quote
Gee that is pretty thin gruel to launch and assumption on since 
- No witness saw the gun.
- TM made no outcry about a gun.
- GZ testified that the gun was drawn at the last moment.

and beside your personal disbelief of the the rather unremarkable probability that Zimmerman stopped screaming as he fired your evidence is......

What? Please tell me you have something

Now you raise a different issue ? I thought you said that Treyvon was screaming as a reaction to GZ brandishing a weapon? Since you and the state have no evidence to support that ...

OK whats your evidence that George wiggled out then shot TM?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #124 on: July 23, 2012, 06:51:55 AM »
Now you raise a different issue ? I thought you said that Treyvon was screaming as a reaction to GZ brandishing a weapon? Since you and the state have no evidence to support that ...
Huh? Since when have I claimed that Martin was screaming because GZ was brandishing a weapon?

It's hard enough debating you on the facts you'll actually admit to let along having you make sh...er, stuff up. It's not the first time you've put words in my mouth. Please stop it.

OK whats your evidence that George wiggled out then shot TM?
You mean besides the body with a hole in the chest?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 06:55:53 AM by dragon ash »

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #125 on: July 23, 2012, 06:56:27 AM »

That's probably enough to get you started.
Please cite the leading causes of 'traumatic brain injuries. Hint: It ain't 'getting beaten up'.


Umm...Skippy? Don't look now but...:

Juan DelValle, 65, was knocked to the pavement following a minor traffic accident in the Bronx last week, according to authorities. DelValle was attempting to navigate a school bus through a narrow and crowded Anthony Avenue and clipped a mirror on a double-parked car, authorities said.

When DelValle exited the bus to survey the damage, the driver of the car allegedly began yelling at him. Surveillance video captured the car driver then punching DelValle so forcefully he was sent flying backward before his head slammed on the road.

DelValle never regained consciousness. He is being fed intravenously and cannot breathe on his own.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/Bronx-School-Bus-Driver-Beaten-Coma-Life-Support-Accident-Juan-DelValle-159659175.html

Only takes one white crow to prove not all crows are black. And if you google one punch kill you'll find many more.


Offline Kyreth

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #126 on: July 23, 2012, 06:58:03 AM »
Really? Let's see:

1) 'less than 30 seconds' between hanging up with the NEN dispatch and running into Martin. Call record and witness statements are pretty conclusive that the gap is at least two minutes.

That only proves George would have a lousy career as a clock.

Quote
2) George's testimony in interviews and the reenactment video about where he was during the call and Martin's actions (specifically the 'came back and circled my truck' bit) is pretty much impossible. There are any number of alternative scenarios that match, but George's story isn't one of them.

You can hear on the NEN call when the circling happened, George just got some events out of order.  That's just evidence of a poor memory.

Quote
3) George claims to have been west of the T when approached by Martin, started walking backwards, then was hit in the face, yet he claims to have stumbled -forward- to the south.

I don't see anything wrong there.  We don't know what angle he was hit, where George's center of gravity was before and after the hit, how he might have tried to correct his balance while disoriented, etc.  It's very plausible it could have happened that way.

Quote
4) George makes no mention of any stumbling etc in his first interviews - every interview is consistent with 'I was knocked back on to the grass with the first punch'. It's only when he gets to the scene in the reenactment that he does some ridiculous 'arms waving swimming motion' and says he 'thinks he stumbled, tried to push Martin off me'.

The entire sequence of events between getting hit, stumbling south, and being pushed down with Trayvon got on top of him probably was less than 10 seconds or so.  (Maybe even as little as 5).  I see no reason to assume George would have crystal clear, accurate accounting of the immediate 5-10 seconds after being disoriented from a punch so hard that it broke his nose.

Quote
5) In every single interview he says Martin ran up the cut-through and turned right (south) towards the back entrance. He said in the initial interviews that he didn't know why Martin ran. Now he claims that Martin wasn't 'running', no he was 'skipping', and he could tell from his car that Martin wasn't running out of fear.  ::)

I see no problem there either.  George was obviously trying to find a word to describe the speed at which Martin ran as opposed to a flat out sprint.  I would have used maybe "trot" or a "fast jog", but I wasn't the one on the spot interviewing with Sean Hannity for something to air on national television. 

I think it's absurd to assume George was trying to tell us that Trayvon was actually skipping along; I think it's safe to conclude George meant the run was at the speed of a skip.

Quote
6) He claims to have been able to pin Martin's arm with his right hand, and with the same hand reach back and beneath him, pull out his gun, aim and fire a perfect bull's eye - with the same arm! - while keeping Martin's arm pinned. Martin's *right* arm is free this entire time, yet Martin seems strangly reluctant to try and stop getting shot.

I see no issue there either.  The entire sequence of motions would have been maybe 2-3 seconds.

Quote
7) George claims his arms and hands were free the entire time, yet George has no defensive wounds, and George tells us nothing about what he was doing with his hands/arms while getting punched 'more than a dozen times' or having his head slammed into the concrete. This isn't an inconsistency per se, just seems exceedingly odd, particarly since George outweighs Martin by a good margin
.

Well since you already admit that's not an inconsistency, I'll just add that defensive wounds are not necessarily the norm when just trying to limit an attack from that close.

Quote
8) Martin is able to sneak up on George from behind...but issues a verbal challenge to George, giving George time to back up and try to reach for a phone etc. This seems like an odd thing to do if Martin's intent was to sucker-punch George.

I think your flaw there is assuming he's trying to be sneaky when yelling clearly indicates he's not.  It's dark, raining, for all we know Martin ran at George from behind and George didn't hear him until the yell.

Quote
9) George says that after following the possibly drugged, possibly armed, up-to-no-good suspicious-looking 'effin' punk', he comes face to face with Martin - and the first thing he tried to do was 'dial 911'. I can't stress enough how ridiculous this is. Who stands there dialing 911 with the effin' punk drugged up armed bad guy is standing right there in front of you? Again - not an inconsistency per se, but it definitely defies all logic and common sense.

I think that might just show George would have been trying not to get into a confrontation, as evidenced by what else he did while trying to dial 911 - telling Martin that he didn't have a problem.

So, anything else?

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #127 on: July 23, 2012, 06:58:13 AM »
Huh? Since when have I claimed that Martin was screaming because GZ was brandishing a weapon?

It's hard enough debating you on the facts you'll actually admit to let along having you make sh...er, stuff up. It's not the first time you've put words in my mouth. Please stop it.
You mean besides the body with a hole in the chest?

The body with the hole in the chest isn't evidence that George "wigged out".


Offline Kyreth

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #128 on: July 23, 2012, 07:00:01 AM »

Please cite the leading causes of 'traumatic brain injuries. Hint: It ain't 'getting beaten up'.


Irrelevant.  That said, the 3rd leading cause of TBI is the head being struck by/against something.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #129 on: July 23, 2012, 07:02:10 AM »

I'm sure George wigged out while in the fight. Surprisingly, the law doesn't let you kill somebody just because you're in a fight.

A fight is a mutual thing. Being assaulted and battered isn't. If Trayvon attacked first (evidence, actual evidence, not your fantasy island stuff says he did) then pounced on GZ while he was on the ground, that's assault and battery and probably a handful of other stuff. That's not a fight.

Why do you think it was a fight?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #130 on: July 23, 2012, 07:04:19 AM »
Unfortunately the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Unfortunately for you, 'getting beaten up' is not anywhere close to being a leading cause of traumatic brain injury.

'struck by/against' is mostly 'running into stationary objects'. There's a very very specific category for 'getting beaten up', and it's not included under 'struck by/against'.

How about this: You're in a fight with a female. She starts punching you. You pull out your 9mm and shoot her in the head, because, hey, you might get knocked down and sufffer a traumatic brain injury.

You really think the law allows that?

The body with the hole in the chest isn't evidence that George "wigged out".
Boy, you sure better hope it is - you surely can't be suggesting George was completely calm, cool, collected and rational during the whole thing, right?


Quote from: annoyedbeyond
Why do you think it was a fight?
Because that's how every single witness described it?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 07:06:45 AM by dragon ash »

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #131 on: July 23, 2012, 07:05:26 AM »
The body with the hole in the chest isn't evidence that George "wigged out".
Boy, you sure better hope it is - you surely can't be suggesting George was completely calm, cool, collected and rational during the whole thing, right?

Offline Kyreth

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #132 on: July 23, 2012, 07:06:13 AM »
Massad Ayoob (firearms expert that has a huge hand in law enforcement training etc) did a seminar recently about SYG too, where he points out that once someone has you pinned to the ground that their fists become deadly weapons and you would be justified in using a firearm to defend yourself against their disproportional force.

(He's also indicated in the past that he may be testifying on George's behalf.)

Offline Kyreth

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #133 on: July 23, 2012, 07:07:13 AM »
Boy, you sure better hope it is - you surely can't be suggesting George was completely calm, cool, collected and rational during the whole thing, right?

False dilemma.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #134 on: July 23, 2012, 07:10:19 AM »
Massad Ayoob (firearms expert that has a huge hand in law enforcement training etc) did a seminar recently about SYG too, where he points out that once someone has you pinned to the ground that their fists become deadly weapons and you would be justified in using a firearm to defend yourself against their disproportional force.

(He's also indicated in the past that he may be testifying on George's behalf.)

Mas is an interesting guy for sure. Know him. Hung out with him. Shot against him in NRA Conventional Pistol (and out shot him! Its not his game. He'd destroy me in IDPA or a police course). Have been in email contact with him a couple of times about the case in fact.


 

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