Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 278364 times)

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Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #135 on: July 23, 2012, 07:12:54 AM »
Unfortunately the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Unfortunately for you, 'getting beaten up' is not anywhere close to being a leading cause of traumatic brain injury.

'struck by/against' is mostly 'running into stationary objects'. There's a very very specific category for 'getting beaten up', and it's not included under 'struck by/against'.

How about this: You're in a fight with a female. She starts punching you. You pull out your 9mm and shoot her in the head, because, hey, you might get knocked down and sufffer a traumatic brain injury.

You really think the law allows that?
Boy, you sure better hope it is - you surely can't be suggesting George was completely calm, cool, collected and rational during the whole thing, right?

Because that's how every single witness described it?

It doesn't have to be. It's about what George might have (or did) reasonably fear. And since people do die and people do suffer traumatic brain injuries--that's all there is too it.

Sorry.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #136 on: July 23, 2012, 07:16:25 AM »

How about this: You're in a fight with a female. She starts punching you. You pull out your 9mm and shoot her in the head, because, hey, you might get knocked down and sufffer a traumatic brain injury.


Do you buy your straw men in bulk to save money?

Why the assumption that women aren't dangerous? I had an abusive ex girlfriend in college that broke my nose twice. Back then I believed you don't hit women no matter what. I've since changed that opinion--and if a woman is hitting hard enough to do damage, then yes, shooting in self defense may well be a option.


Offline Darby2

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #137 on: July 23, 2012, 08:29:15 AM »
DragonAsh

Then am I correct in assuming you believe all of George's story except that he wasn't in fear for his life or great bodily harm?
 If not, please let me know what else from George's version you disagree with, that is material to him being guilty of murder or manslaughter?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #138 on: July 23, 2012, 08:50:03 AM »
Then am I correct in assuming you believe all of George's story except that he wasn't in fear for his life or great bodily harm?
No, I don't believe all of George's story. Too much of it simply doesn't fit.
If not, please let me know what else from George's version you disagree with, that is material to him being guilty of murder or manslaughter?
See my post above where I list nine or 10 points that I find problematic about George's version of events.

Personally? Based on the evidence as we have it so far, I think he's guilty of manslaughter, because I don't see evidence of 'reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death'.

I'm fully aware that, for better or worse, that's not the standard that will be used at trial.

And I don't think we've necessarily seen all the evidence that defense intends to submit, so I'll revise my opinion if the evidence warrants. Believe it or not, I'm not (nearly) as BIASED as some would like to believe.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #139 on: July 23, 2012, 09:04:11 AM »
No, I don't believe all of George's story. Too much of it simply doesn't fit. See my post above where I list nine or 10 points that I find problematic about George's version of events.

Personally? Based on the evidence as we have it so far, I think he's guilty of manslaughter, because I don't see evidence of 'reasonable fear of great bodily harm or death'.

I'm fully aware that, for better or worse, that's not the standard that will be used at trial.

And I don't think we've necessarily seen all the evidence that defense intends to submit, so I'll revise my opinion if the evidence warrants. Believe it or not, I'm not (nearly) as BIASED as some would like to believe.

I don't think you're really biased--or at least *that* biased. From here it just looks like you're kind of a jerk (I don't mean that as an insult--a lot of us are jerks) who likes to argue. Sometimes you go a little overboard with it, and you seem to hate the idea of backtracking at all.

Based on what I know--all the research that I've read, which is all stuff that we're not supposed to talk about here because it's not evidence yet, I'm pretty firm in believing GZ thought he was in fear and had good reason to be.

If you really haven't done any of that, and are only going off of media reports and the discovery materials, I think I could see where you'd think GZ was guilty of manslaughter.

And I am glad to see you say you don't really buy the murder two.

And on an unrelated (kinda) bent: if Martin did hit GZ in the face, and was on top of him (as GZ and other witnesses say) and Martin saw the gun and said "you're gonna die"--do you think that's a good reason for GZ to fear for his life?

Just curious. No trap intended.

Offline Cylinder

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #140 on: July 23, 2012, 09:11:41 AM »
I can't see the State calling DeeDee. Her testimony is shaky, at best, and given her...tenuous, shall we say,  grasp of English it'd be a nightmare having her on the stand.

Well, that and the fact that her useful testimony supports Zimmerman's version of events.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #141 on: July 23, 2012, 09:45:05 AM »
I don't think you're really biased--or at least *that* biased. From here it just looks like you're kind of a jerk (I don't mean that as an insult--a lot of us are jerks) who likes to argue. Sometimes you go a little overboard with it, and you seem to hate the idea of backtracking at all.
Yeah, I'm sure you mean that in the best possible way.  ;D

I enjoy debate. Let's just say...it's part of my profession. I backtrack when shown compelling evidence it's needed. Hell, I've done it here on these very boards - I'm disappointed you haven't noticed.

What I don't like is being accused of being a biased, spiteful troll just because I happen to disagree with the consensus opinion on these boards (or, in technical terms, 'I didn't drink the Kool-aid').

Based on what I know--all the research that I've read, which is all stuff that we're not supposed to talk about here because it's not evidence yet, I'm pretty firm in believing GZ thought he was in fear and had good reason to be.

If you really haven't done any of that, and are only going off of media reports and the discovery materials, I think I could see where you'd think GZ was guilty of manslaughter.
I'm pretty confident in saying that I've done a heck of a lot of reading & research into this. I've pretty much ignored media reports. I have used the discovery materials, but it's not the only content I'm looking at.
And on an unrelated (kinda) bent: if Martin did hit GZ in the face, and was on top of him (as GZ and other witnesses say) and Martin saw the gun and said "you're gonna die"--do you think that's a good reason for GZ to fear for his life? Just curious. No trap intended.
If there was a video with audio that showed everything happening exactly as George describes it?

I'd probably have to agree that George would be reasonably afraid. I'd still think he was a dangerous idiot - I don't think anyone can defend the various lapses of judgement George showed that night - but I'd say he probably had a reasonable fear and at least a legal justification for the shooting.

Problem is I find too many problems with George's story to believe it hook, line & sinker.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #142 on: July 23, 2012, 09:58:59 AM »
Ash: I had a reply to you, but the board ate it or something.

Yes, I meant it in the best way possible. That's why I said "us", as in "a lot of us are jerks".

 ;D

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #143 on: July 23, 2012, 10:03:26 AM »
An how many of these punches landed?
By the looks of it, almost none.

How many were blocked or partially blocked?
By the looks of it, almost all of them.

You're suggesting George was afraid for his life because he was really good at defending himself?

Offline Lousy1

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #144 on: July 23, 2012, 10:25:31 AM »
By the looks of it, almost none.
By the looks of it, almost all of them.

You're suggesting George was afraid for his life because he was really good at defending himself?

I think he was exhausted, beaten and facing the prospect of things getting worse. Being pummeled for 60 seconds or so can do that -particularly to the guy on the bottom with a broken nose.
However lets just go with the SPD 's opinion rather than yours. Its evidence.

 In fact I don't see any statement minimizing George's injuries as part of the charging document or anywhere else in discovery.

So other than your BIASED  opinion Can you find evidence in discovery that George's injuries are incompatible with reasonable fear of great bodily harm?

Frankly I don't trust your judgement. I also doubt the state will call you as a witness.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #145 on: July 23, 2012, 12:12:34 PM »
My thought for the day as I leave for work...

Marginally consistent = Marginally pregnant

 ;D

Offline unitron

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #146 on: July 23, 2012, 03:44:05 PM »
Sure. Apparently you didn't listen to you guys' own testimony.
So it wasn't 'dozens of time', it was at least 13 punches. I'll be more precise next time.

 ::)


If it were only 13 times, wouldn't that work out to no more often than once every 5 seconds?

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #147 on: July 23, 2012, 04:08:40 PM »
DragonAsh Then am I correct in assuming you believe all of George's story except that he wasn't in fear for his life or great bodily harm?  If not, please let me know what else from George's version you disagree with, that is material to him being guilty of murder or manslaughter?

Darby, if you have a question for a particular commenter, please use the "pm "function rather than posting on the board. You have asked him to restate his position several times. Please either re-read his posts (you can see all his posts under his name on the left side of the screen) or you can pm him.  Thanks.

Offline unitron

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #148 on: July 23, 2012, 05:11:22 PM »
A fight is a mutual thing. Being assaulted and battered isn't. If Trayvon attacked first (evidence, actual evidence, not your fantasy island stuff says he did) then pounced on GZ while he was on the ground, that's assault and battery and probably a handful of other stuff. That's not a fight.

Why do you think it was a fight?

"If Trayvon attacked first (evidence, actual evidence, not your fantasy island stuff says he did)"

If I understand correctly, you are saying that actual evidence indicates or shows that Martin initiated the first physical contact between himself and Zimmerman.

If so, is any of that evidence something other than "Zimmerman said..."?

As far as I know, the two of them were the only visual observers of the beginning of their physical contact.

If I'm mistaken about that I'd very much like to know who else saw it and what they have to say.

My apologies in advance if I have misunderstood what you were trying to say.

Offline unitron

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #149 on: July 23, 2012, 05:16:05 PM »
That only proves George would have a lousy career as a clock.

You can hear on the NEN call when the circling happened, George just got some events out of order.  That's just evidence of a poor memory.

...

I can't tell for sure exactly when during the call the circling occurs, so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't mind pointing out just when it is in that call that it happens, either in elapsed minutes and seconds after the call begins, or a quotation of what was being said at the time.

My thanks in advance.

 

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