Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 239766 times)

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Offline AJ

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2012, 01:47:15 PM »
Couldn't have? Of course not. I'm not a doctor, I have no idea what Martin could or couldn't have said after having been shot in the chest. I'm sure medical experts will testify at trial. Until then, we go by what information as we have.

If Martin had 'as long as' 5 seconds of consciousness, I'm wondering if that was long enough to utter his dying phrase 'you got me' or 'you got it' (or possibly, 'you shot me'?), fall over face down, Martin gets off, straddles, pushes hands out, and then Martin moves his hands back under him before the cops get there.

I'm assuming your registered nurse has ER experience - anyway she would have insight on body movement in a case like this?

If you're going to reply to it, at least read it.

Offline MJW

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2012, 03:25:28 PM »
Can someone else help me with something? I would have sworn I saw a statement that George's gun was on the ground after the shooting, but I believe George says he holstered his weapon and told the first police officer that he had a gun on him. Am I just making that up?


W6 said the gun was on the ground in the FDLE interview.  Or, more specifically, he said he heard Zimmerman say the gun was on the ground.  W6 was upstairs on the phone talking with 911 at the time.  Unless he opened the window, it was shut, since W6 mentions all the doors and windows were shut when he heard the calls for help.

In the original interview with SPD, W6 tells Serino, "And he was pretty much, you know, just saying 'Hey, I put the gun down,' I'm guessing -- uh, you know, "Here, I'm here," and that's . . . and the lady on the phone with 911 pretty much said there's four more calls coming in, all at the same time."  From that interview, it's pretty clear he couldn't hear exactly was was said, and just assumed Zimmerman said he put the gun on the ground.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2012, 05:32:59 PM »
In John's March 20 interview with FDLE, he says after he went upstairs:

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And I ran over to the window to look down, and when I looked down, I saw the person that was actually on top at that point, was laying in my grass kind of in a sprawled position, not moving. Um, and then I saw the-- another person with his hands in the air. As-- it looked-- I don't believe it was cops at that point-- it looked more like neighbors with flashlights that were coming around the corner. Uh, and the guy had his hands in the air, saying "The gun's on the ground. I shot this guy in self defense." And, no lie, at least-- maybe 20 seconds later, the cops are already all there. I think it was just 'cause so many people had already dialed in. And the operator also told me that, you know, there was five other callers calling-in for the same thing that happened. Um, at that point, um, you know, I think I even stated, you know, "Holy sh*t," or something like that, you know, "I think he's dead," because he wasn't moving.

Same interview, before he gets to the gun, he describes the whole incident:

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About the time around when all this started, we were watching TV like we usually do at nighttime. I believe it was the same weekend as the Daytona 500, and while we were watching TV, we kinda heard some loud noise outside, so we figured maybe it was just, you know, either kids in the neighborhood or people, you know, just having a good time outside. And then we heard it again so we muted the TV but didn't hear anything for a second, um, and then we heard it like it was coming towards us, getting a little louder.

So, I kept the TV on mute and went to go look outside through the sliding glass door, through the blinds. And there's only a porch light, so I couldn't truly see what was out in the grass area. And my fiancée, I-- I'm pretty sure advised me not to open the door, but I had to-- I had to check just to see what was going on. And I opened the sliding glass door, and, looking out there, it almost looked like, a s-- like a dog attacked by s-- or something like that because, there was a man vertically looking forward on, like towards the ground. So, if I'm standing at the glass door-- I  opened the sliding glass door, and, looking out there, it almost looked like, a s-- like a dog attacked by s-- or something like that because, there was a man vertically looking forward on, like towards the ground. So, if I'm standing at the glass door-- I don't know how to describe-- It was pretty much like I was laying on the ground directly in front of, like, directly in front of me on the sidewalk.

So I couldn't really tell what was going on until I heard "Help, help, help" yelled again, and then I noticed there was a guy in a lighter colored shirt or sweatshirt or whatever he was wearing, um, I think it was a red color or a white color, uh, on the bottom of the person. So I yelled what was going on, and um, and, you know, "Help, help" came out. And then I was like, "Hey, cut it out," and they kinda turned and made it onto the sidewalk. And the person wearing the black outfit was on top of that person at that time. And that's when I said I was calling 9-1-1.

I turned around, told [redacted for fiancee, W-17] to get off the phone, get upstairs. And I locked the door and started dialing 9-1-1. And as soon as I picked up on 9-1-1, a couple seconds later, as we were about to make our way upstairs, it sounded like, like a rock hit a window. I never heard a gunshot before, but now, knowing that was the gunshot that I heard, um-- And, from that point, as she was still making it up the stairs, I ran upstairs while I was on the phone with the, ah, 9-1-1, ah, person that answered my call.

Here's the part where he changes that he saw TM hitting GZ and that he saw GZ crying help. It was after he talked to his neighbors (a less reliable memory due to the pooling of information, a typical eyewitness evidence problems.)

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Um, and then after that, it was just, you know, pretty much giving statements the rest of the night, um, you know, talking with my neighbors next door, um. I didn't have my patio door open, but I heard, um, you know, from other people-- other people had, you know, doors open or something like that, so they could hear it a little better, but I could only hear the 'helps' through, you know, with all the doors and windows closed.

So I couldn't tell, you know, who was yelling "Help," this or that, but you could tell it was a male, of course. Um, but as to who was yelling, I-- you know, I-- I can't make that call. At first, I thought it was the person on the ground, just because, you know - me thinking rationally - if someone was on top, the person on the bottom would just be yelling. But, you know, that's just an assumption. I truly can't tell who, you know - after I thought ab-- you know, after I'm thinking about it - was yelling "Help," just because it is so dark out on that sidewalk. Um, you can't see a mouth or, you know. I really wish I could have, 'cause that woulda really helped, but that was pretty much all I saw at that point. I didn't see how it started. I didn't see how it ended. I just saw the part where they were in an altercation on the ground.

Remainder of quotes in next reply.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2012, 05:41:58 PM »
That is incorrect the burden of proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt its preponderance of the evidence. Try reading Jeralyns extensive research on the main board.

I deleted the comment for falsely stating the law.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2012, 10:57:05 PM »
Are you insinuating that Mr. Martin couldn't have said a word after he was shot? I'll assume you are for this reply. The words I'm about to quote are from a registered nurse anesthetist. I'll quote both individuals in this mini-conversation so you see the full context. Make of it what you will, but I will note that this person has stayed neutral in this case - only commenting on things relating to medical concerns.

NOTE: What I'm about to quote may seem cold and gruesome. If you are easily offended or become queasy regarding detailed medical information, I respectfully ask that you skip over what is quoted below.

    I disagree. The collapse of the lungs was not instantaneous, nor was LOC (loss of consciousness) necessarily instantaneous. It actually takes several seconds to intentionally collapse a lung in the OR. And unless someone has a catastrophic head injury, LOC is not typically instantaneous from trauma-- there is often a period of consciousness after the trauma that varies according to what kind of trauma the victim sustained. It's possible that TM had several seconds of consciousness before collapsing, as his chest rapidly filled with blood, and his heart had a last few seconds of quiver. There would not have been a coordinated, beating heart from the moment of imact, but TM not only had "sufficient" BP to sustain consciousness before the GSW-- but was in an elevated physiologic state of fight or flight, with elevated endogenous catecholamines, that preceeded the GSW. So, consciousness for a few brief seconds is a true possiblilty, IMO. I apologize for stating that very bluntly-- I don't mean at all to be cold or disrespectful, but to clinically illustrate what was occurring. I've seen a lot of hearts go on, and come off cardiopulmonary bypass (and a few that never made it off bypass.) Being able to actually see how a heart responds to surgical trauma is invaluable when considering what occurs at the moment of penetrating chest trauma from a GSW, or other source of trauma.

    I don't know exactly how long he may have maintained consciousness-- maybe as long as 5 seconds-- or a few seconds beyond. I think it is entirely possible, and likely, that he had a few seconds of knowledge that he had been shot in the chest, before losing consciousness. I have had people on a cardiac monitor who were talking at the moment they went into a pulseless rhythm, and I have a few clear memories of them saying such things as "Oh no" and one man I clearly remember said "Oh *****". A dying utterance is a definite physiologic possibility. (Think of this like an utterance on the exhale.)

I see we are familiar with the same person.  I have appreciated her medical input on a couple of things, not just with this case.  She can take the medical complexities and phrase them in a way that all can understand.  I admire her.

Offline JW

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2012, 02:34:48 AM »
We do not know this to be true. Officer Ricardo Ayala wrote in his statement that the hands were under the body, but there are issues. One such issue is that he wrote the report some 7+ hours after the incident. Another issue is that he was one of the two to give CPR - so taking notes immediately was probably out of the question. Another issue is that Officer Ayala did not mention in his report that a bystander was asked for Vaseline and cellophane to cover the chest wound - which would be a detail you'd expect someone to remember. I'm not saying Officer Ayala is doing anything malicious, but I don't think we can rely on his word alone - his memory is subject to flaws just as everyone else's is.

The human brain can live approx. 4 minutes after the heart stops. I believe witness #16 claims she saw Trayvon's leg or feet moving when George was on top of him. Maybe that explains it.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2012, 05:20:17 AM »
RE: The retired deputy that is a friend to George Zimmerman  pg. 77-80

In his recounting of what Zimmerman told him, located at the bottom of page 78, he describes the first witness (#6) that George made eye contact with when asking for help.  The witness said he was calling the police.  That corresponds to what GZ has said.

But then he goes on to describe two additional witnesses that also came outside and George made eye contact with and asked for help and both of them went back inside.  Were there three total witnesses to the fight?

I went thru O'Steens reports since he is the one listed as doing the interviews with W4, W7, and W10.  There is a statement from Chad Green in there so I am assuming he is one of the three but I couldn't find anything new in the rest of the interviews that might be assigned to the other two. 

Could the other two be the witnesses that GZ described to his friend?

I am confuzzled on this.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #22 on: July 13, 2012, 11:12:11 AM »
Can someone else help me with something? I would have sworn I saw a statement that George's gun was on the ground after the shooting, but I believe George says he holstered his weapon and told the first police officer that he had a gun on him. Am I just making that up?

A bystander, I think W-6, overheard Zimmerman telling Officer Smith he had a gun and asking him to take it. He misunderstood some words and thought Zimmerman was saying he had put the gun on the ground.

I've spent enough time with the witnesses statements that I feel confident saying no one saw the gun on the ground.

Offline Cylinder

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2012, 10:14:50 AM »
A bystander, I think W-6, overheard Zimmerman telling Officer Smith he had a gun and asking him to take it. He misunderstood some words and thought Zimmerman was saying he had put the gun on the ground.

In his re-enactment (IIRC) Zimmerman claimed that as he was told to put his hand behind his back to be cuffed, he wanted the officer to know that he hand a firearm near where his hand would be.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Disarming GZ
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2012, 11:44:06 AM »

Officer Timothy Smith (p. 14 of the first discovery documents):
Quote
Located on the inside of Zimmerman's waistband, I removed a black Kel Tek 9mm PF9 semi auto handgun and holster.

Offline dragon ash

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2012, 12:50:07 PM »
I think we may have been missing a really important piece of evidence, and I may have been wrong about something.

This whole time we've been assuming George never went back to his truck, and instead spent the two minutes between the end of his call and the start of the confrontation.

I think this is incorrect. I think George went back to his truck, and then went back out looking for Martin.

My evidence: At 02:08 when George says "He's running", he gets out of his car and you hear the door chime. That's the 'hey, dummy, you've forgotten your keys' - and the chime only ends when the door is shut. Second is 03:22 of his NEN call: When he tells the dispatcher directions to his truck, he says (as the NEN dispatcher is talking over him), "the keys are in the truck".


But we know from the evidence that George's keys with small flashlight were found near the T.


I think George went back to his truck to turn the engine off and retrieve the small flashlight on the keychain since his big flashlight wasn't working. He then went back to look for Martin.


George never mentions going back to his truck.


Can anyone find a fault in any of the above?

Offline cboldt

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2012, 01:01:08 PM »
I think we may have been missing a really important piece of evidence, and I may have been wrong about something.
Can anyone find a fault in any of the above?

Yeah.  I hear "see my truck" not "keys are in my truck."

Offline who007

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2012, 01:06:36 PM »
I think we may have been missing a really important piece of evidence, and I may have been wrong about something.

This whole time we've been assuming George never went back to his truck, and instead spent the two minutes between the end of his call and the start of the confrontation.

I think this is incorrect. I think George went back to his truck, and then went back out looking for Martin.

My evidence: At 02:08 when George says "He's running", he gets out of his car and you hear the door chime. That's the 'hey, dummy, you've forgotten your keys' - and the chime only ends when the door is shut. Second is 03:22 of his NEN call: When he tells the dispatcher directions to his truck, he says (as the NEN dispatcher is talking over him), "the keys are in the truck".


But we know from the evidence that George's keys with small flashlight were found near the T.


I think George went back to his truck to turn the engine off and retrieve the small flashlight on the keychain since his big flashlight wasn't working. He then went back to look for Martin.


George never mentions going back to his truck.


Can anyone find a fault in any of the above?

Yes. It goes against all the statements GZ made in his police interviews and reenactment.

Offline unitron

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2012, 02:21:45 PM »
I think we may have been missing a really important piece of evidence, and I may have been wrong about something.

This whole time we've been assuming George never went back to his truck, and instead spent the two minutes between the end of his call and the start of the confrontation.

I think this is incorrect. I think George went back to his truck, and then went back out looking for Martin.

My evidence: At 02:08 when George says "He's running", he gets out of his car and you hear the door chime. That's the 'hey, dummy, you've forgotten your keys' - and the chime only ends when the door is shut. Second is 03:22 of his NEN call: When he tells the dispatcher directions to his truck, he says (as the NEN dispatcher is talking over him), "the keys are in the truck".


But we know from the evidence that George's keys with small flashlight were found near the T.


I think George went back to his truck to turn the engine off and retrieve the small flashlight on the keychain since his big flashlight wasn't working. He then went back to look for Martin.


George never mentions going back to his truck.


Can anyone find a fault in any of the above?


Interesting theory.

Especially considering how "abruptly" he gets out of his truck when Martin runs.

Other possibility, perhaps, is chime indicates headlights left on.


You might ask over at bcclist, the guy there listened to all kinds of car chime recordings to figure out that it was a Honda Ridgeline before that info was made public.

Offline unitron

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2012, 02:25:20 PM »
Yes. It goes against all the statements GZ made in his police interviews and reenactment.

The guy who just shot somebody and is looking to not be sent to jail for it might not always make statements upon which the athorities can rely.

 

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