Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 286436 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline txantimedia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #600 on: August 10, 2012, 09:47:21 PM »
Thank you, Jeralyn.  You are, of course, right.

And that brings me to the most profound question I have.  Given the evidence, why did Coury bring the 2nd degree murder charge?  ISTM a manslaughter charge might have been defensible (or perhaps involuntary manslaughter, if FL has that on the books), but the 2nd degree murder charge is just way over the top.

I'll understand if you can't or don't want to answer that for professional reasons.

Offline TalkLeft

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
  • Rate Post +0/-0
    • TalkLeft: The Politics of Crime
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #601 on: August 10, 2012, 09:54:29 PM »
Thank you, Jeralyn.  You are, of course, right.

And that brings me to the most profound question I have.  Given the evidence, why did Coury bring the 2nd degree murder charge?  ISTM a manslaughter charge might have been defensible (or perhaps involuntary manslaughter, if FL has that on the books), but the 2nd degree murder charge is just way over the top.

I'll understand if you can't or don't want to answer that for professional reasons.

Either or both of the following: To up the stakes and make it more likely GZ would plead to a lesser charge, or because she hopes to obscure and diminish the self-defense argument by introducing negative character information about GZ, under the guise  it supports the element of a "depraved mind," hoping it will prejudice the jury against him when it considers self-defense. It's a cheap tactic, but one done all the time.

Florida law is very clear that a spontaneous overreaction to danger during a confrontation is not evidence of a depraved mind sufficient to show second degree murder. And in most cases, as I've outlined before, murder 2 cases involve people who knew each other before the fatal incident. The exceptions are cases like someone randomly mowing down multiple people.

In my opinion, the charge is over the top and should never have been brought, and I have no problem, professionally or otherwise, in so opining.

Offline txantimedia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #602 on: August 10, 2012, 09:59:23 PM »
Again, thank you.  I really appreciate receiving a professional opinion about the case from someone who is apparently as unbiased as anyone can be.

Offline TalkLeft

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1124
  • Rate Post +0/-0
    • TalkLeft: The Politics of Crime
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #603 on: August 10, 2012, 10:11:22 PM »
Again, thank you.  I really appreciate receiving a professional opinion about the case from someone who is apparently as unbiased as anyone can be.

You are welcome, but I am not neutral or unbiased.  I view all cases  through the lens of the defense.  I strive for factual and legal accuracy, but I am not unbiased in how I view the facts and interpret the law.

Offline AJ

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #604 on: August 10, 2012, 10:51:10 PM »
OK, help me understand.  Where exactly do you think GZ lost sight of TM?

Normal walking pace is 4 miles an hour.  4x5280=21120/60=352 feet per minute.  To cover the 603 ft +40 feet around the truck would take 1 minute 49 seconds.  Working back from "He's running" which occurs at 2:07 on the tape, he would have had to see TM walking past his truck at 0:18 on the tape.  Yet at 0:05 he says "the best address I can give you is 111 Retreat View Circle." 

That's true ONLY if everything is recorded. I've pointed out the turn signal a number of times - I assume you still haven't listened to that audio file, that was the 16 second mark which you previously claimed was a sound that is heard at the 11 second mark. Now why would there be a turn signal randomly there? Why would there be the sound of someone changing gears right before that? Simple: Mr. Zimmerman moved to the corner and turned right. The whole 11 second theory of yours doesn't work because in your theory you say that Mr. Zimmerman lost sight of him 50 feet away - which would be a good calculation if it were correct, but it's not. Mr. Zimmerman never marked or stated that the location 50ft was the spot where he lost Mr. Martin. He marked the location across the street, right up against the building as the location where he lost sight of Mr. Martin. That's exactly where my theory says he lost sight of Mr. Martin, right before he was able to get through to Sean - or in Mr. Zimmerman's words AS he was trying to get through. You'll also note in ALL of your gear changing sounds (or all of them that you point out) has the same exact number of clicks each time the gear selector is moved. How do you explain that, given that he went to multiple gears from multiple positions?

Quote
Yet he adamantly states, in tape 3 of the Serino/Singleton interview, that he's still at the clubhouse at the 0:48 minute mark. Notice how he is completely certain that at 0:48 he was still at the clubhouse?  But at 1:03 he's not so certain, and at 1:16, he's even less certain?

See my response to you, or WillisNewton, previously about the questioning from Serino and Singleton.

Quote
Since GZ couldn't see TM after he turned the corner onto TTL, there's no evidence to suggest what TM was doing except the times on the tape.  And those times say TM had to have run before he circled back.  The laws of physics demand it.

He could see him after Mr. Martin had turned the corner onto TTL - as he told Investigator Singleton and DREW for her. Mr. Martin doesn't -have- to run at all, until when Mr. Zimmerman says "he's running" in my theory. The laws of physics are not against my theory either.

Quote
Either this scenario is somewhat a plausible explanation of what GZ claims happened or GZ is lying about it.  If he's lying, why?  Why on earth would he make up such a goofy story?

So, saying Mr. Zimmerman didn't really lose sight of Mr. Martin at the corner of the building, as he stated and drew, isn't calling him a liar? I haven't called him a liar yet, and have no reason to. There is no reason to ignore any of the evidence, whether it's the map that he drew or the multiple times he said he lost sight of Mr. Martin at the corner of the building across the street.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 10:54:20 PM by AJ »

Offline tchoupi

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 79
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #605 on: August 10, 2012, 11:03:06 PM »
If you watch the reenactment video from the 2:45 to 2:50 mark, GZ says he lost sight of TM as he rounded the corner headed toward TTL, just as I said.  If you watch the video, you'll see that GZ is pointing to the corner of the clubhouse and there is shrubbery and other obstructions there that obscured his view.

I think I understand what you're saying now.  Yes, I agree.  I thought you were saying that while GZ was at the clubhouse, he lost sight of GZ multiple times.  This is what your post above was suggesting to me.

From my recollection, in every accounts GZ made, there are 2 moments when he lost TM: One around the time of his NEN call and one after the circling.

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #606 on: August 10, 2012, 11:15:55 PM »
I don't think so.

Zimmerman volunteered  'circled' in the reenactment (3:46-4:03) and 'walked around' in the interview preceding the voice stress test (27:31-49, 6:46:08-26).

I don't think he was asked about the circling earlier by either Sgt. Smith or Investigator Erwin. They were following his narrative, not anticipating it.

In the reenactment, Zimmerman was still in the car at the time. Serino hadn't asked him anything yet.

Regarding Investigator Erwin, that is the correct spelling of his name. I regret that in a number of comments I misrecalled it as 'Irwin.'

From the interview with Singleton Feb 26th, 2012:

BCM
Quote
Zimmerman: Um, I called the non emergency line and I just reported that there was a suspicious person in the neighborhood. Um, the dispatcher, whoever answered the phone asked me where they went and I said I wasn't sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses. And, uh, he said well can you tell me what direction he went. I said not really. Um, and then all of a sudden I see him circling my car. And, and then he goes back into the darkness. So...

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #607 on: August 10, 2012, 11:21:42 PM »
So I'm supposed to believe Zimmerman's post shooting accounts of what happened but discount everything he says in them?

I didn't ask you to discount anything.  I said that I discount it.  You can choose to believe whatever you want.

I do believe that he is describing TM passing his truck at the clubhouse however.  And he told Singleton that he "and, um, so I just pulled my car to the side and I called the non emergency line."

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5447
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #608 on: August 10, 2012, 11:26:08 PM »
From the interview with Singleton Feb 26th, 2012:

I was responding to what you wrote about 'questionings after the night of the 26th/27th.'
« Last Edit: August 10, 2012, 11:30:56 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline txantimedia

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 209
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #609 on: August 11, 2012, 12:06:33 AM »
That's true ONLY if everything is recorded. I've pointed out the turn signal a number of times - I assume you still haven't listened to that audio file, that was the 16 second mark which you previously claimed was a sound that is heard at the 11 second mark.
Your "turn signal" sound is the wiper blades.  If you listen to the recording closely, you will hear that sound (with varying degrees of clarity) at 0:01, 0:16, 0:31, 0:46, 1:01, etc., etc.  It comes every 15 seconds, in a very rhythmic pattern and is very discernible once you know what to listen for.

Furthermore, why would GZ turn his signal on?  He's backing out, according to you.  (And no, I don't hear a gear sound at 0:11).  Your theory makes no sense and doesn't accord with the evidence at all.  If the sound is a turn signal, then why does George turn it on every 15 seconds throughout the entire time that the car is running?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5447
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #610 on: August 11, 2012, 12:18:01 AM »
I think it won't make a difference.

I think it has already made a difference, in that Zimmerman probably won't testify.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5447
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Race You!
« Reply #611 on: August 11, 2012, 12:45:17 AM »
How, from the NEN call, do you get the impression GZ is backing out at this time?

I don't.

I was asking Txantimedia about his scenario.

Offline AJ

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 371
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #612 on: August 11, 2012, 12:50:04 AM »
Your "turn signal" sound is the wiper blades.  If you listen to the recording closely, you will hear that sound (with varying degrees of clarity) at 0:01, 0:16, 0:31, 0:46, 1:01, etc., etc.  It comes every 15 seconds, in a very rhythmic pattern and is very discernible once you know what to listen for.

There is a wiper at the start, and that wasn't what I was talking about. I've taken another shot at this, and this time I'll show you exactly how it's NOT a wiper blade:

This is the wiper blade in a spectrogram: http://s9.postimage.org/tvdvuqpvh/wiper.jpg
This is the wiper highlighted in the spectrogram of the turn signal: http://s8.postimage.org/pqvgm80w3/signal.jpg

All that extra stuff to the right of the wiper blade in that second image? That's the turn signal. I've gone one step further and made examples for you to listen to, this time properly cropped:

Wiper: http://www.filedropper.com/wiper-31268
Signal: http://www.filedropper.com/signal_1

Based on the images and the audio, it's clearly not a wiper blade.


Quote
Furthermore, why would GZ turn his signal on?  He's backing out, according to you.  (And no, I don't hear a gear sound at 0:11).  Your theory makes no sense and doesn't accord with the evidence at all.  If the sound is a turn signal, then why does George turn it on every 15 seconds throughout the entire time that the car is running?

Some people follow the law and use their turn signals when they turn - just a guess. I'd also like for you to point out a single time that I've ever said he was backing out. I'll save you the trouble - I haven't, because in my theory he backed out before Sean picked up on the line (or was in the process of doing so). As pointed out above, you paid attention to the wrong sound. Other than your misunderstanding of the sound you should've paid attention to, how does my theory not flow with the evidence?
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 01:01:34 AM by AJ »

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #613 on: August 11, 2012, 02:45:10 AM »
Txantimedia, it sounds like you're assuming Martin walks completely to the "T" before returning to circle Zimmerman's car. If you are, I think you're wrong. In the very interview where Zimmerman is drawing on the Google map, as he drawing on the map, he says:
Quote
Singleton: OK, you ended up here, and then…is that when he circles your car?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK. He comes out from where?
Zimmerman: I don’t know.
Singleton: OK. All of a sudden you just notice he’s circling your car.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK. So he’s circling your car...
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
If Martin disappears behind the houses, then reappears -- from where, Zimmerman doesn't know -- how can you know Martin made it to the "T"?

Offline unitron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #614 on: August 11, 2012, 03:35:46 AM »
I think it won't make a difference.

The question will be whether GZ's believed  he was in imminent danger of serious bodily injury or death after Trayvon hit him  and whether that belief was reasonable....

This thread is not entitled "Is Zimmerman guilty or not guilty of that with which he has been charged", it's entitled "George as a Witness".

In other words, out of all that he has said, what, if anything, can we believe?

Or even make sense of.

If he says "A", and "A" just doesn't seem to make sense or fit with other stuff we know, can we say what that means as to whether he's believable when he says "B".

If "A" doesn't fit with other stuff we know, are we "knowing it wrong"?

For example, after the very first time I heard the phone call recording, if someone had told me "That part right after he says the other guy is running?  What you hear after that is actually not the sound of him getting out of the vehicle in a hurry and running after the guy.", I'd still be at the chiropractor as a result of my violent and rapid doubletake.  But that's me. Others seem to hear it as an indication of something else.  Could this be a case of one or the other of us "knowing it wrong"?

If nothing else, we can look at all of the stuff he's said so far and how it fits with itself and with other stuff, and develop opinions about how he'd do if he ever takes the stand, or whether there are any circumstances under which he dares take the risk of taking the stand, or whether the greater risk is in not taking the stand.

And of course me, I wanna figure out just what the h311 actually really happened that night.

If it results in any intellectual discomfort for the insufferably smug on the fringes of both "sides", well, that's just gravy.

 

Site Meter
click
tracking