Author Topic: George as a Witness  (Read 286542 times)

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Offline unitron

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #975 on: August 21, 2012, 08:36:55 AM »
Supposedly we're talking about George as a witness.

(or at least we were supposed to have been doing that, he said guiltily)

Everything he writes and says and re-enacts after the shooting is him being a witness.

The phone call is him being evidence.

All the different accounts he gives after the shooting seem to me to be able to be reconciled with each other if you make allowances for no one having a perfect memory, perhaps especially if you allow for the possibility that he got his head bounced on the concrete some.

It's when you try to match all that up with the phone call that you wind up having to pound square pegs into round holes.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #976 on: August 21, 2012, 08:38:08 AM »
I see we are at cross purposes.

I think of the interview as preparation for the test, rather than part of the test itself.

I cited that interview, and linked to it, in the comment in which you seem to think I ignored it.

That account has one of the most explicit statements that Zimmerman was on RVC when he was asked where he wanted to meet the police.

In the end it won't matter anyway, will it?  He was successful with the test and now the State only has to throw some dirt on it in the court of public opinion.

I like the Voice Stress test interview and I still hold that the NEN is one of the most important "statements" on GZ's behalf but for different reasons that Jeralyn gives.  I have had my arse royally kicked and if it weren't for witnesses, I wouldn't have much of a clue as to the specifics.  He has the tape to keep things kind of right leading up to that altercation.

GZ was always cooperative with them.  In return they fed him some misinformation as a way to trap or trick him all the while being friendly and pretending to be concerned.  Serino telling him how he had resources available for GZ's mental health, I assume PTSD, at his disposal I thought was lowest of the low.  And yes, I have paraphrased it.  That detective didn't give two Shi*s about how he would feel later.  He wanted a manslaughter charge.

IMO ONLY, in his effort to cooperate he may have been trying to match the timelines and details that they wanted.  It could have skewered actual events in his memory. It is a funky little trick detectives use, especially if one is shook up since they are vulnerable and afraid.  He fell for it.  He should have called a lawyer, especially after Singleton. 


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #977 on: August 21, 2012, 08:51:13 AM »

Dee Dee’s version of events, while probably not correct in all details, gives a general overall chronology that is consistent with George’s chronology.

The police call had been released by the time of Dee Dee's first semi-public statement. That may explain what similarities exist.

Again I'm impressed by the discrepancies, starting at the beginning of the incident. Zimmerman said he and Martin first noticed each other near 1460 RVC. Dee Dee said Martin was at the mail shelter when he first noticed Zimmerman.

Zimmerman never admitted to seeing Martin at the mail shelter, or to following Martin in the truck for the length of time Dee Dee's narrative suggests.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #978 on: August 21, 2012, 08:56:07 AM »
Did Martin approach the truck from the east or the west? How anyone can dismiss that as trivial is beyond me.

I can only speak for myself, but it might be because there is absolutely no evidence that TM or GZ did anything illegal up until the point were someone grabbed/hit/pushed someone else. Interesting back story, but not the meat of the case. People keep looking for inconsistencies or some kind of "gotchya!" moment in the pre-encounter timeline. One where they can point a finger at either GZ or TM and say "That proves it was murder/self-defense!". But none of the back story really seems to be relevant unless it can be established something illegal occurred during it.

EDIT: Something illegal that directly relates to the final physical encounter.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 09:05:56 AM by FromBelow »

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #979 on: August 21, 2012, 09:10:11 AM »


Zimmerman never admitted to seeing Martin at the mail shelter, or to following Martin in the truck for the length of time Dee Dee's narrative suggests.

Never admitted.

How about never saw? He was quite clear about the first time he saw Martin.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #980 on: August 21, 2012, 09:11:04 AM »
The discrepancies involve crucial turning points: Zimmerman's decisions to follow Martin onto Twin Trees Lane, to leave the truck, and not to return to it after agreeing to stand down from following Martin.

Did Martin approach the truck from the east or the west? How anyone can dismiss that as trivial is beyond me. Zimmerman's accounts of Martin's movements and behavior in the SPD interviews differ strikingly from the police call.

I disagree that his descriptions differ strikingly.

As to the direction TM came from:

He approached GZ's vehicle twice: once when he was parked near or at the clubhouse, and TM approached from the west (TM walked from 1460 RVC and passed GZ who was parked -- this is where TM goes to the mailboxes and tells DeeDee some guy is on the phone watching him) and once when GZ was parked at TTL, and he appeared from the west (he re-emerges after disappearing behind the houses and circles his car-- this is right before "he ran.")

According to Dee Dee, Trayvon is at the mailboxes when he first tells her  George is watching him in his car  and he tells her George is on the phone.  So Trayvon  has walked from 1460 Retreat View Circle where George first saw him, towards George, who is sitting in his car at the clubhouse on the phone with non-emergency, and TM passes George (staring at him.) Trayvon reaches the mailboxes (after which George lost sight of him, prompting his statement to the dispatcher, “these as*sholes, they always get away.”) Dee Dee says Trayvon starts walking and they lose phone contact.

When Trayvon and Dee Dee  reconnect, Trayvon tells her  the man is still watching him,  following him, and he puts up his hoodie because it's raining. She says Trayvon is still walking but getting ready to run.  Trayvon is probably behind the houses on Twin Trees Lane now, so that as George drives past the mailboxes and parks at Twin Trees Lane, he doesn’t see Trayvon until after he has parked and Trayvon unexpectedly re-appears and circles his truck and then runs off.

We know what direction for both times TM approached GZ's truck (once staring at him as he passed and once while circling.) We know from GZ and DeeDee.


As to returning to his truck:  He never veered from his intention to return to his truck. The dispatcher's questions caused him to first look for an address. I read it this way, as it's consistent with his statements, the non-emerg call and even Dee Dee's version.

The dispatcher asks George what direction Trayvon  ran, and he gets out of his truck to find out. He tells the dispatcher Trayvon is running towards the other entrance, and the dispatcher asks “Which entrance is that?” George responds that it’s the back entrance.  George says “okay” when the dispatcher says they don’t need him to follow Trayvon. After he says “okay” he tells the dispatcher “he ran.” 

For the next 20 seconds, as the dispatcher is asking him his name and phone number, he’s walking across the top of the “T” to Retreat View Circle. The dispatcher tells him an officer is on the way and asks if he still wants an officer to come out (meaning should an officer still come even though the guy had gotten away.)  George says yes, and the dispatcher asks him where he’s going to meet the cops.  He tries to give directions to where his truck is parked, thinking he’ll walk back to it.  Then the dispatcher asks what address he’s parked in front of.  He doesn’t know because there are no street signs for Twin Trees Lane where he parked, anda parked truck blocked the number on the only house he could see the front once he left his truck and headed down the walkway to towards the pet waste can f (1211 Twin Trees Lane).  He knows the name of the next street because it’s RVC, the street he lives on. He goes to get an number of a house there.  The dispatcher is still asking him questions.

The dispatcher asks him if he wants to meet at the mailboxes. He says okay but then realizes the police are already en route, and if the police go to the mailboxes, George probably wouldn’t have enough time to get back to the mailboxes before they arrive to meet them.  He also may have realized  the mailboxes are not a good place to meet because Trayvon had run towards the back entrance, not the front entrance which is close to the mailboxes. The mailboxes are in the wrong direction if the police are going to be looking for Trayvon. So he tells the dispatcher to have the police call him and he'll explain to them where he is (the dispatcher never quite understood his directions) and he starts walking back to his truck where he intends to meet the officers.

He never abandoned his "decision" to walk back to his truck. The dispatcher's questions just caused him to first go to RVC to look for a house number.


« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 09:15:34 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #981 on: August 21, 2012, 09:13:33 AM »
My point is that if Zimmerman had composed his thoughts better before the call connected, he might have been able to convince the dispatcher to get the car started out there sooner.

Feel free to disagree.

However, I'm afraid I've been guilty of veering from the subject of George as a ticking time bomb on the the stand witness.

Now if someone starts up a "George gives terrible telephone" thread, or maybe even a "George as evidence" thread...

How much sooner than the minute thirty Sean claimed? Were I you, I'd be more annoyed that a police dispatcher--even NEN--would tell a citizen police are on the way when apparently they weren't. Lies could get people hurt. And maybe did get someone killed.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #982 on: August 21, 2012, 09:15:08 AM »
How about never saw?

If you know that, you know something I don't.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #983 on: August 21, 2012, 09:15:37 AM »
I can only speak for myself, but it might be because there is absolutely no evidence that TM or GZ did anything illegal up until the point were someone grabbed/hit/pushed someone else. Interesting back story, but not the meat of the case. People keep looking for inconsistencies or some kind of "gotchya!" moment in the pre-encounter timeline. One where they can point a finger at either GZ or TM and say "That proves it was murder/self-defense!". But none of the back story really seems to be relevant unless it can be established something illegal occurred during it.

EDIT: Something illegal that directly relates to the final physical encounter.

The only part of the backstory I think matters is why did TM apparently reach safety (or at least near safety?) and come back.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #984 on: August 21, 2012, 09:18:36 AM »
If you know that, you know something I don't.

Did GZ say he saw TM?

He was very cooperative with the police. He told them the story over and over. And starting with the NEN call, we know what he did pretty well, minus the footage from the Snoopy blimp.

Mostly I don't know why you'd use a charged word like "admitted" when you could've just said "George never said he saw him".

Saying 'admitted' makes it sound like he's hiding something, and there's no evidence of that save the statement of a girl that sounds pretty flaked out.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #985 on: August 21, 2012, 09:21:25 AM »
The discrepancies involve crucial turning points: Zimmerman's decisions to follow Martin onto Twin Trees Lane, to leave the truck, and not to return to it after agreeing to stand down from following Martin.

Did Martin approach the truck from the east or the west? How anyone can dismiss that as trivial is beyond me.

Zimmerman's accounts of Martin's movements and behavior in the SPD interviews differ strikingly from the police call.

Explain why you feel GZ was under any obligation to sprint back to his truck.



Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: The Once And Future Address
« Reply #986 on: August 21, 2012, 09:23:10 AM »
In the end it won't matter anyway, will it?  He was successful with the test and now the State only has to throw some dirt on it in the court of public opinion.

I like the Voice Stress test interview and I still hold that the NEN is one of the most important "statements" on GZ's behalf but for different reasons that Jeralyn gives.  I have had my arse royally kicked and if it weren't for witnesses, I wouldn't have much of a clue as to the specifics.  He has the tape to keep things kind of right leading up to that altercation.

GZ was always cooperative with them.  In return they fed him some misinformation as a way to trap or trick him all the while being friendly and pretending to be concerned.  Serino telling him how he had resources available for GZ's mental health, I assume PTSD, at his disposal I thought was lowest of the low.  And yes, I have paraphrased it.  That detective didn't give two Shi*s about how he would feel later.  He wanted a manslaughter charge.

IMO ONLY, in his effort to cooperate he may have been trying to match the timelines and details that they wanted.  It could have skewered actual events in his memory. It is a funky little trick detectives use, especially if one is shook up since they are vulnerable and afraid.  He fell for it.  He should have called a lawyer, especially after Singleton.

Yes. All of this.

It's part of why I get bothered by people who parse every word he said looking for the gotcha.

Offline FromBelow

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #987 on: August 21, 2012, 09:42:53 AM »
IMO ONLY, in his effort to cooperate he may have been trying to match the timelines and details that they wanted.  It could have skewered actual events in his memory. It is a funky little trick detectives use, especially if one is shook up since they are vulnerable and afraid.  He fell for it.  He should have called a lawyer, especially after Singleton.

I think he cares and tries very hard to be helpful. While I admire that it can set you up for a lot of pain if you aren't careful. He was too trusting of LE and the legal system.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 09:44:44 AM by FromBelow »

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #988 on: August 21, 2012, 09:51:35 AM »
The police call had been released by the time of Dee Dee's first semi-public statement. That may explain what similarities exist. Again I'm impressed by the discrepancies, starting at the beginning of the incident. Zimmerman said he and Martin first noticed each other near 1460 RVC. Dee Dee said Martin was at the mail shelter when he first noticed Zimmerman. Zimmerman never admitted to seeing Martin at the mail shelter, or to following Martin in the truck for the length of time Dee Dee's narrative suggests.

Dee Dee never said TM was at the mail shelter when he first noticed GZ.  She said that's where TM was when he first mentioned seeing GZ to her. Two different things. He passed GZ at the clubhouse to get to the mailbox.

Why do you refer to whether GZ said he saw or didn't see TM at the mailboxes as an admission? It doesn't discredit him either way.  The likely scenario in my view, consistent with both GZ and DeeDee:

According to Dee Dee, Trayvon is at the mailboxes when he first tells her  George is watching him in his car  and he tells her George is on the phone.  So Trayvon  has walked from 1460 Retreat View Circle where George first saw him, towards George, who is sitting in his car at the clubhouse on the phone with non-emergency, and passes George (staring at him.) Trayvon reaches the mailboxes (after which George lost sight of him, prompting his statement to the dispatcher, “these as*sholes, they always get away.”) Dee Dee says Trayvon starts walking and they lose phone contact.

Trayvon either walks down the front of TTL or down the shared path. He can see GZ driving down TTL but GZ can't see him. When Trayvon and Dee Dee  reconnect, Trayvon tells her  the man is still watching him,  following him, and he puts up his hoodie because it's raining. She says Trayvon is still walking but getting ready to run.  Trayvon is probably behind the houses on Twin Trees Lane now, so that as George  parks at Twin Trees Lane, he doesn’t see Trayvon until after he has parked and Trayvon unexpectedly re-appears and circles his truck and then runs off.

Then Dee Dee says she could hear Trayvon running, breathing hard and then Trayvon tells her  he lost the man. He’s almost to his father’s house.  Trayvon now thinks he has  lost George because once he ran from the area, he couldn’t see George, but unbeknownst to him, at this time George is walking along the top of the “T” towards Retreat View Circle, to confirm for the dispatcher which way Trayvon ran and get an address. 

Dee Dee says Trayvon then “started walking back.” (She doesn’t say Trayvon “started back walking” which might mean he resumed walking – she says he “started walking back” which implies a direction or place he was returning to.)  She tells Trayvon to keep running to his father's house and he says he's not going to run anymore.  At this time, Trayvon is probably walking  back up the shared path between houses  towards the “T.”  He tells her he sees George again.  At this point, George is  probably still walking to Retreat View Circle to get an address and Trayvon can see him from wherever he is on the shared path. Considering the darkness, Trayvon must be pretty close to the “T” again. Dee Dee says a couple of  minutes pass.  It’s probably during these couple of minutes that George reached Retreat View Circle, stayed for a bit, hung up with non-emergency, put his phone away  and began walking back to his car.

Dee Dee  says after these couple of minutes, Trayvon tells her George is “getting real close.” Trayvon can probably see very clearly now because he's hiding– probably  behind the hedges at 1211 Twin Trees Lane  and he sees George, who is on his way back t his car, approaching .  I personally think he then ran across to the backyards of 2841/2851 RVC,  from where he jumped out at GZ, but that's just my theory.

This is it for me today, back to work. I'll check in again tonight.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2012, 09:57:44 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: George as a Witness
« Reply #989 on: August 21, 2012, 10:14:23 AM »
Why do you refer to whether GZ said he saw or didn't see TM at the mailboxes as an admission?

It would be one time that Zimmerman saw Martin do something to get out of the rain.

 

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