Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 58047 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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What Happened at the "T"?
« on: July 09, 2012, 09:07:40 AM »
At his first interview on the night of the 26th, Zimmerman claimed he fell down and was mounted right after Martin's sucker punch.  During the walkthrough, his gestures indicate there was movement southward before he fell down.  Also, witnesses heard shouting from 2 or more people before the yelling for help started.  The shouts seemed to migrate from the T to John's lawn.  Zimmerman has not included an account of what the shouts were about, AFAIK.  Does anybody remember him being asked about that?  Was there an opportunity for him to diffuse the situation by identifying himself before he was on the ground being pummeled?  The evidence from the witnesses to the shouting and the fact that he wants to give the impression that he and Martin exchanged one sentence a piece at the T, raises suspicions.  Could a prosecution argument be based on it?

Offline Lousy1

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2012, 09:16:01 AM »
At his first interview on the night of the 26th, Zimmerman claimed he fell down and was mounted right after Martin's sucker punch.  During the walkthrough, his gestures indicate there was movement southward before he fell down.  Also, witnesses heard shouting from 2 or more people before the yelling for help started.  The shouts seemed to migrate from the T to John's lawn.  Zimmerman has not included an account of what the shouts were about, AFAIK.  Does anybody remember him being asked about that?  Was there an opportunity for him to diffuse the situation by identifying himself before he was on the ground being pummeled?   The evidence from the witnesses to the shouting and the fact that he wants to give the impression that he and Martin exchanged one sentence a piece at the T, raises suspicions.  Could a prosecution argument be based on it?

Why do you assume that identifying himself would diffuse the situation?

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2012, 09:29:27 AM »
Why do you assume that identifying himself would diffuse the situation?

It might not have diffused the situation.  I find the fact that Zimmerman didn't claim to have tried, noteworthy.  I think Serino was tending towards this argument in his Capias, as part of the case for negligent homicide.

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2012, 09:31:31 AM »
I honestly don't recall Z saying he fell right where he was struck and TM was mounted on top of him instantaneously. I agree he didn't elaborate on the actual movements that occurred the night of the event, but I wouldn't equate lack of details that night as proof that the details of the reenactment are fabricated.

The witnesses that describe the shouting/arguing starting at the T, talk of it being a brief exchange and then a period of silence (from a few seconds up to 10 minutes from one witness).  The other witnesses that talk about the second round of shouting could very well be referring to the screams for help.  The 911 call captures the shout out of screams for help and some witnesses identify that the words are help and others just say more generically that its people shouting.

I guess its possible Z could have diffused the situation, but one would have to make some assumptions.  If the story Z is telling is true (TM surprised him out of the dark coming at him) he probably figured saying he was a neighborhood watch person wasn't going to change TM's intentions and I doubt it was the first thing that came to mind (I'm guessing that was more like oh crap, I thought he was gone, now I need some help).  Others have said that if he had just said he called police and they are on the way, then TM would not have attacked.  I guess my answer to that would be that John said he was going to call 911 and there doesn't appear to be any indication that this caused TM to stop his assault so I'm not sure its a valid thought.  Not sure its worth spending much time on as Z didn't identify himself and it doesn't matter either way to his self defense claim.  The fact that Serino referenced this in his capias is just another indication why its prosecutors that make the final decision on whether to charge and not policemen.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2012, 09:32:08 AM »
The shouts seemed to migrate from the T to John's lawn.

Who said that? My recollection is that the shouts changed to 'scuffling' before the source of the sounds moved.

Quote
Zimmerman has not included an account of what the shouts were about, AFAIK.

Zimmerman didn't comment on the volume of the words exchanged between himself and Martin, and he wasn't asked about it.

W-11 thought she heard three shouts, but she wasn't sure. It's possible that only one of them was shouting, and the other went unheard.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2012, 09:43:36 AM »
Jeralyn went over the evidence that the shouts migrated in a post on the Debris Field thread.  Here is a transcript of the relevant portion of Zimmerman's interview with Singleton on the first night.  Notice that in this version he "fell backwards".
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Zimmerman: “So I was walking back through to where my car was and he jumped out from the bushes and he said ‘What the f*ck’s your problem homey?’ And I got out my cellphone out to call 911 this time. And I say, ‘Hey man, I don’t have a problem,’ and he goes ‘Now you have a problem.’ And he punched me in the nose. At that point I fell down, I tried to defend myself. He just started punching me in the face. And, uh, I started screaming for help, I couldn’t see, I couldn’t breathe. Then he started taking my head…”

Investigator: “And you’re still standing at this point?”

Zimmerman: “No ma’am, I fell to the ground when he punched me the first time. It was dark, I didn’t even see him getting ready to punch me. As soon as he punched me I fell backwards into the grass. And then he grabbed me and he was whaling on my head, and then I started yelling help. when i started yelling help, He grabbed my head and he started to hit my head into the — I tried to sit up and yell for help and then he grabbed my head and started hitting it into the sidewalk. When he started doing that I, I slid into the grass to try and get out from under him, and so he would stop hitting my head into the sidewalk, I was still yelling for help. I could see people looking and some guy yells out ‘I’m calling 911′ and I said ‘help me, help me, he’s killing me,’ and he puts his hand on my nose and on my mouth and he says your going to die tonight and I, I don’t remember much after that. I just remember I couldn’t breathe and then he still kept trying to hit my head against the pavement, or, I don’t know if it was a sign or what it was, so I just… when I slid my jacket and my shirt came up and when he said your… I felt his hand go down on my side and I thought he was going for my firearm so I grabbed it immediately and as he banged my head again I just pulled out my firearm and shot him.”

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2012, 09:44:32 AM »
I honestly don't recall Z saying he fell right where he was struck and TM was mounted on top of him instantaneously.

In the first interview he said he fell 'as soon as' he was punched (2/26-1, 14:07-11).

In the second part of that interview, going over the events again, he said he didn't know where he 'ended up' after the punch (2/26-2, 6:47-52).

Quote
The witnesses that describe the shouting/arguing starting at the T, talk of it being a brief exchange and then a period of silence (from a few seconds up to 10 minutes from one witness).

W-18 said that. W-11 and W-20 I'm sure did not. I don't recall what W-12 and W-13 said about that.
 

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2012, 09:54:31 AM »
Jeralyn went over the evidence that the shouts migrated in a post on the Debris Field thread.

You mean this?

The word 'shout' appears nowhere in that post. The words are 'noise' and 'sounds'.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2012, 10:11:27 AM »
You mean this?

The word 'shout' appears nowhere in that post. The words are 'noise' and 'sounds'.
;D  OK, your assignment is to listen to all the witnesses mentioned and report back exactly what words they used to describe the sounds.  Didn't one describe one voice as more dominant than the other?  Did anybody use screams to describe the noise at this point.  Am I wrong in thinking that the sounds only turned to screams when they reached John's lawn?  Am I the only one here bothered by Zimmerman leaving out what he said between "I don't have a problem" and "Help"?  Will the prosecution argue that all he did was curse and threaten Martin instead of explaining his business?  Can you imagine Zimmerman leaving out anything he did that would cast him in a good light?

Offline dragon ash

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2012, 10:52:42 AM »
Why do you assume that identifying himself would diffuse the situation?
It might not have. Or it might have. We'll never know, will we? Because George never tried.

Obviously just a WAG, but one could surmise that if he says 'I'm with the neighborhood watch, everything OK'? or something like that, from Martin's point of view "the creepy guy that's been following me around in a car for the last couple of minutes and is now out of the car chasing after me" becomes "concerned citizen just making sure everything's ok", and maybe the talk baskeball for a few minutes before heading to their respective destinations.

Obviously that's pure specuation.

Anyone know if the Neighborhood Watch had rules & guidelines drawn up? I lived in a community with a very similar program many years ago. Everyone had maps, relevant phone numbers, and four or five guidelines on a laminated card handed out to patrolers. In addition to a small map of the particular area that person was patrolling, the card had emergency contact info and a reminder of what to say and do when confronting someone. The two key guidelines were 1) key responsibility was to observe and report; let LEOs do the arrests and such, and 2) identify yourself by name and association (Hi, I'm John with the NH, is everything OK).

If nothing else I hope NH programs start implementing these guidelines if they haven't already.

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2012, 11:03:42 AM »
In the first interview he said he fell 'as soon as' he was punched (2/26-1, 14:07-11).

In the second part of that interview, going over the events again, he said he didn't know where he 'ended up' after the punch (2/26-2, 6:47-52).

My interpretation of that sequence was that he was saying he was felled by one punch, not that he was stating that he went straight down like a ton of bricks.  The quote from the second part of the interview as well as other recollections that he fell/stumbled backwards seems to contradict the idea that he fell straight down where he was punched.

[/quote]W-18 said that. W-11 and W-20 I'm sure did not. I don't recall what W-12 and W-13 said about that.
[/quote]

My recollection from W-11 and W-20 (same household) was that they heard arguing (causing them to mute TV), then a period of no yelling, but only scuffling or oooh's and aaah's, then screaming for help as the scuffling moved south.  I didn't intend to imply they didn't hear anything between the arguing and yelling, but others commented on hearing arguing, then a period of no yelling and then yelling again (screams for help).  Others only reported hearing the second yelling (screams for help)

Offline Lousy1

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2012, 11:09:21 AM »
It might not have. Or it might have. We'll never know, will we? Because George never tried.


Sorry, I don't know what GZ tried. How do you?

We do know  from his description,that he was not afforded the luxury of polite conversation.
We can also speculate that given the tenor of TM's question that GZ  could expect tat identifying himself might cause further aggression.

 Why would TM launch a punch because someone replied that I don't have a problem'? My guess is that Martin's opening challenge were part of the bravado of a pre-planned assault.


« Last Edit: July 09, 2012, 11:17:17 AM by Lousy1 »

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2012, 11:13:07 AM »
Whether Zimmerman could have defused the situation is in my opinion a red herring advanced by Serino and the State. Florida law does not impose duty to avoid danger.  See McWhorter v State:

Quote
In this case, the trial court properly granted appellant's request for self-defense instructions, based on appellant's testimony that he was first attacked by Archibald and that he struck Archibald to retaliate and prevent further harm to himself. Appellant contends, however, that the trial court incorrectly instructed the jury on self-defense by telling them that appellant had to try to "avoid the danger" before using force. According to appellant, this instruction negated his defense.

....the revised standard jury instructions for justifiable use of deadly force, which were approved by the Florida Supreme Court in May 2006....Standard Jury Instruction 3.6(f): Justifiable Use of Deadly Force omit the "necessity to avoid" language...

....[T]he trial court's jury instructions misstated the current law applicable to self-defense. The "necessity to avoid" language would lead the jury to believe that the appellant had  to use "every reasonable means within his power to avoid the danger" before he could resort to the use of force likely to cause great bodily harm. However, under section 776.013, a person who is attacked is allowed to stand his
or her ground and "meet force with force." It appears that the new law places no duty on the person to avoid or retreat from danger, so long as that person is not engaged in an unlawful activity and is located in a place where he or she has a right to be. § 776.013(3), Fla. Stat. (2005). Because the jury instructions misstated the law governing appellant's sole affirmative defense of self defense, we reverse and remand for a new trial.

Prior to 2006, there was such a duty. The old, now discarded instruction read:

Quote
The defendant cannot justify the use of force likely to cause death or great bodily harm unless [he][she] used every reasonable means within [his][her] power and consistent with [his][her] own safety to avoid the danger before resorting to that force.

If Zimmerman was punched by Martin without having provoked Martin's use of force against him, Stand Your Ground applies and he had no duty to defuse the situation. So discussing what he could have done to diffuse the situation goes nowhere unless he provoked Martin's used of force against him. And as endlessly discussed here in other threads,  to find he provoked Martin and was the aggressor, his actions would have had to contemporaneously provoke Martin's use of force. It's not enough to provoke fear unless the fear is of imminent bodily injury. Following someone and demanding they account for their presence, or asking what they are doing in a certain place, do not reasonably provoke the fear of  the imminent use of physical force. There's no evidence or suggestion that Zimmerman issued a verbal threat of force  and as I've said before, you can only speculate here when your theories and suggestions have some factual support in the discovery released by the parties.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2012, 11:14:31 AM »
;D  OK, your assignment is to listen to all the witnesses mentioned and report back exactly what words they used to describe the sounds.  Didn't one describe one voice as more dominant than the other?  Did anybody use screams to describe the noise at this point.  Am I wrong in thinking that the sounds only turned to screams when they reached John's lawn?  Am I the only one here bothered by Zimmerman leaving out what he said between "I don't have a problem" and "Help"?  Will the prosecution argue that all he did was curse and threaten Martin instead of explaining his business? Can you imagine Zimmerman leaving out anything he did that would cast him in a good light?

 Can you imagine the prosecution leaving out evidence of Zimmerman swearing at Martin? Cause I sure don't see it in what out there.

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2012, 11:38:37 AM »
It might not have diffused the situation.  I find the fact that Zimmerman didn't claim to have tried, noteworthy.  I think Serino was tending towards this argument in his Capias, as part of the case for negligent homicide.

I know Jeralyn hates this wandering from the topic, but if Zimmerman had just hung a left into Frank's driveway as soon as he saw Martin, then someone who was what he suspected Martin was would have rabbited back out the unfenced gap to the west, and Martin not being that would have wondered why that guy turned into the drive so fast but at least the truck's off the street so he could cross RVC without getting run over in the rain and proceeded on his way to get under shelter waiting for the rain to ease up. 

Zimmerman, seeing someone acting like they had a right to be there would have had to re-evaluate.

 

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