Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 56807 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #105 on: March 18, 2013, 05:11:58 PM »
what I have been asking about the whole time is if anyone other than Zimmerman can place the beginning of things at the T specifically

After all this time, I assumed you had some idea of what the witnesses said. I thought you were challenging the significance of it.

No witness, Zimmerman included, puts it 'at the T specifically'. In the reenactment, Zimmerman was standing on the sidewalk west of the T, with one foot on the joint of the first and second segments (8:13). He emphasized that he wasn't sure of the exact location (8:04-13).

Quote
Zimmerman: And then, he was here, and he punched me in the face.

Serino: Right here?

Zimmerman: Right as -

Serino: About?

Zimmerman: - around here. To be honest with you -

Serino: That's fine.

Zimmerman: I don't remember exactly.

Serino: That's fine.

W-11, SPD, 3/2/12, 7:04-21
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W-11: It sounded like it all started right on the sidewalk by our house there.

Serino: Mmhmm.

W-11: And then, maybe like it bent the corner, and, right there is where the scuffle started, and kinda scooted down. You know what I mean?     

Serino: Yeah. [Crosstalk.]

W-11: Because it definitely went past the back of our house.

This seems to put the start of it somewhere north of W-11's unit, about 15 feet west of where Zimmerman suggested. W-11 was specific about putting it 'right on the sidewalk'.

Later, W-1 seemed to be indicating two possible locations on a drawing, or some kind of improvised diagram or model.

7:42-8:10
Quote
W-11: So let's pretend my house is here. I think it might have started either here, or here, and then came around here.

Serino: Well, this here's the sidewalk, right?

Singleton: This is, this is Twin Tree [sic].

W-11: There's two sidewalks, yeah.

Singleton: This is Twin Tree, and this would be going to the mailboxes [crosstalk] clubhouse.

W-11: OK. Gotcha. So then it either started here, or here, and then it came over here, and this is where [crosstalk].

Singleton: So you think it started on this portion of the sidewalk? 

W-11: Yes.

Singleton: From the sound?

W-11: From the sound, yeah.

Singleton: And then, this, where are you at, I'm sorry? 

W-11: Right here.

Singleton: You're right here. So you could hear it passing here?

W-11: Right.

W-20, SPD, 3/2/12, 0:49-1:00
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W-20: All of a sudden, kinda sounded like to the back left of the unit, and it was raining outside, but we heard kind of a scuffle, or kinda just ruffling around in the bushes.

If 'to the back left of the unit' means to the left as one looks out the back, that would be north of the unit, consistent with Zimmerman and W-11.

W-20 later indicated some uncertainty.

4:01-9
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W-20: And so we couldn't tell how far away it started. We were trying to, you know, figure out how it started. But also the rain probably muffled the sound. So we couldn't, you know, it could have been right there.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #106 on: March 20, 2013, 01:37:12 AM »
I think the statements of W-11 and W-20, putting the start of the altercation north of their unit, are strongly supported by the pattern of what was and wasn't heard by different witnesses.

W-11 and W-18 distinguished the sounds of two or more men shouting, before the screams for help began. None of the witnesses south of W-11's unit heard that.

W-3, W-6, and W-14 only heard the screams for help. W-1 heard a noise like screaming kids, either 'no' or wordless (3/1, 1:23-42, 3/20, 1:09-26).  W-2 heard one or two words, like 'no' or 'yo', shortly before the shot (3/1, 0:48-55, 3/9, 2:36-3:04, 3/20, 7:42-57).

Because of the timing, I don't think the 'yo' suggested by W-2 should be identified with the 'yo' that Zimmerman attributed to Martin once, in the reenactment (7:28).

Another piece of the mosaic is W-6's description of noise that at first seemed distant and then came closer.

W-6, FDLE, 3/20

2:03-25
Quote
W-6: And, while we were watching TV, we kinda heard, some loud noise outside. So we figured maybe it was just, you know, either kids in the neighborhood, or people, you know, just, having a good time outside. And, then we heard it again, so we muted the TV but didn't hear anything for a second. And then we heard it, like it was coming towards us, getting a little louder.

8:14-38
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W-6: You could tell it was farther away from where it ended up, in the grass area, you know, behind our townhomes right here. It seemed like it was a lot farther away, because, as time went on, it got closer, and you could, could really, tell, "Oh, that's, I think that's someone really yelling help this time," and it's not, people outside, you know, roughhousing, and, you know.

9:13-58
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W-6: If you hear someone yelling, and they're two blocks, three blocks down, it's gonna be a faint sound, you know, you're not gonna hear it as loud. But it sounded like it more, it more, it progressed towards us. I don't know if it was coming from the left or the right. But, the sound just got louder, because I think it, either someone had started, you know, yelling "Help!", and it just got closer and closer, until, you know, we could truly hear it, close enough, and that makes sense because it was right, you know, in the back yard area. That's what I mean, it sounded, you know, like it was getting closer, just the, the sound of the "Help"s, that were getting closer, with movement towards, you know, our location.

The last pieces are the items found on the ground.

The keychain flashlight, found a few feet to the south and west of the T, was turned on, suggesting that it was dropped from someone's hand.

In his FDLE interview, W-13 indicated he saw the keychain flashlight on the ground near the T, just after he went outside.

Quote
Investigator: Did you, after you went outside with your flashlight, and looked around, was it anything laying on the ground that you noticed out of the ordinary?

W-13: No. Along, along with just the kid laying there, I saw, I noticed there was one, it, it looked like one of those tactical flashlights. And then, towards the corner, on the sidewalk, across from where the, that poop station is, was a, like a little flashlight. I don't know if it could have been, like, it looked like a flashlight to me anyways. So it looked like there was two flashlights on the ground.

The only place I know to find this interview is Axiom Amnesia, which I've been asked not to link.

Zimmerman's main flashlight, and Martin's phone, were probably in their pockets, and worked their way out as the two wrestled. That would take time, consistent with their locations close to where the struggle ended.

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #107 on: March 20, 2013, 07:00:36 AM »
I am in total agreement with the previous 2 posts about where the confrontation between the two began and which direction it progressed.  It does not answer the question of how the two individuals came together in that location, but it does not contradict anything GZ said about the path he took or was on when the confrontation began.


Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #108 on: March 20, 2013, 01:39:56 PM »
The previous 2 posts don't address why the flashlight and cellphone are by the body, not closer to the Tee. Didn't George tell singleton he had the flashlight in his hand ?

They also doesn't preclude the possibility of George and Trayvon encountered each other near the tee, and exchanged words there, but moved south during their  exchange prior to the altercation starting.

Also, I guess I'm surprise nobody has any thoughts about  George returning to the area of the Tee after the fight, close to where his car keys were located ? This is according to witness 13 and witness 18. That seems to be an odd thing for George to do.


Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #109 on: March 20, 2013, 02:34:37 PM »
The previous 2 posts don't address why the flashlight and cellphone are by the body, not closer to the Tee. Didn't George tell singleton he had the flashlight in his hand ?

It was to Serino, not Singleton, and he said he thought he had the flashlight in his hand. A reasonable conjecture, I think, is that he may have actually put the non-working flashlight in his pocket, and had the small key-chain flashlight in his hand.

Quote
Serino: Yeah, I mean itís, um, like I say youíre not in custody, youíre not on probation, I have no (unintelligible) with your doing anything. Iím doing a fair and impartial investigation here. And, um, I have some inconsistencies that donít amount to much, but, um, I mean, I guess, you know, well hopefully by the time weíre done here today weíll ha..have enough to go ahead and, you know, not have folks looking at me, haÖ like Iím crazy for not arresting you, OK? At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?
Zimmerman: I think my flashlight.
Serino: OK. The flashlight. Was it working or was it not working?
Zimmerman: It was dead.
Serino: It was dead. OK. It was not clicking on. It was in your right hand or left hand?
Zimmerman: I donít know.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #110 on: March 20, 2013, 02:47:51 PM »

The previous 2 posts don't address why the flashlight and cellphone are by the body

Zimmerman's main flashlight, and Martin's phone, were probably in their pockets, and worked their way out as the two wrestled. That would take time, consistent with their locations close to where the struggle ended.

clouseau
Quote
Didn't George tell singleton he had the flashlight in his hand ?

MJW has addressed this. I have a few things to add.

The quote MJW cited is from the second part of the 2/29 interview. The part about the flashlight starts about 1:23.

Audio

Zimmerman didn't say which flashlight was in his hand. I think it was more likely the keychain flashlight, because it was turned on when it was found.

Zimmerman never mentioned having a second flashlight in his SPD interviews, as if he had forgotten it.

clouseau
Quote
They also doesn't preclude the possibility of George and Trayvon encountered each other near the tee, and exchanged words there, but moved south during their  exchange prior to the altercation starting.

Good point.

The statements of W-11 and W-6 suggest they continued moving south after it got physical.

clouseau
Quote
Also, I guess I'm surprise nobody has any thoughts about  George returning to the area of the Tee after the fight

In his FDLE interview, W-13 indicated he saw the keychain flashlight on the ground near the T, just after he went outside.

We discussed this last month on another thread, starting here.

clouseau
Quote
That seems to be an odd thing for George to do.

Why? He was expecting a police officer, who would be likely to park on one of the streets and take the cross walk into the backyard area.

Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #111 on: March 20, 2013, 03:45:07 PM »
Zimmerman never mentioned having a second flashlight in his SPD interviews, as if he had forgotten it.

The small flashlight is quite mysterious. The Serino interview was conducted on March 29th, so by that time I'd think Zimmerman would have realized he'd lost his key. What makes it even stranger is that Zimmerman was never asked about the key or small flashlight. As far as I know, nothing in discovery has even established that it was actually Zimmerman's.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #112 on: March 20, 2013, 03:47:27 PM »
Thanks for the additional info, I'll look further into it.

I still find it odd that instead of waiting near the incident, he felt the need to ... go find the police ? I wish he had been asked about what he was thinking or why he did that.

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #113 on: March 20, 2013, 04:22:08 PM »
I have a vague memory of having asked this recently, but then again I have a vague memory, period.

Was the little keychain flashlight still burning when it was noticed on the ground by somebody, and if so, who was that somebody?

Now watch somebody within about 5 seconds post a link to my having gotten the answer previously.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #114 on: March 20, 2013, 04:22:49 PM »
The Serino interview was conducted on March 29th, so by that time I'd think Zimmerman would have realized he'd lost his key.

He had a lot on his mind.

As we've discussed on another thread, it could have been a spare key.

Quote
As far as I know, nothing in discovery has even established that it was actually Zimmerman's.

It does look like a Ridgeline key. See here and here.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #115 on: March 20, 2013, 04:27:53 PM »
Was the little keychain flashlight still burning when it was noticed on the ground by somebody, and if so, who was that somebody?

CST Diana Smith, 80/184.

Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #116 on: March 20, 2013, 05:40:08 PM »
The Serino interview was conducted on March February 29th, so by that time I'd think Zimmerman would have realized he'd lost his key.

I originally typed "the 29th," then decided to specify the month, and for some reason typed the wrong one.

Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #117 on: March 20, 2013, 05:44:21 PM »
Thanks for the additional info, I'll look further into it.

I still find it odd that instead of waiting near the incident, he felt the need to ... go find the police ? I wish he had been asked about what he was thinking or why he did that.

If you're going to claim Zimmerman walked to the "T" as though it's an established fact, please quote the witness statements that show that. I don't recall that it's clear he did that.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #118 on: March 21, 2013, 05:30:15 AM »
If you're going to claim Zimmerman walked to the "T" as though it's an established fact, please quote the witness statements that show that.

I think Zimmerman walked to the T or close to it because of this 4/4/12 drawing by W-18. It seems to show Zimmerman meeting W-13 and one or two police officers just south of the T. Unfortunately, the lines aren't labeled, and I can't find anything in the discovery explicitly identifying them.

The drawing is mentioned in the summary of the 4/4/12 SAO interview (16-18/284). Zimmerman's movements are also discussed, but without relating them to the drawing.

Quote
She could not see much due to the glare from her window so she turned off her night light. Then she saw two people on the ground one on top of the other.

O'Steen asked her where that was and she drew a diagram (in file).

Quote
The person who got up walked toward her window. He walked toward the top left.

Quote
[Redacted] said that someone ran down the sidewalk toward the person with a flashlight. He was not a police officer. She did not hear anything that was said between them.

Right away she saw another person with a flashlight running up. She heard the person standing there say "I shot Him". She saw the police officer handcuff him.

Quote
O'Steen asked if he walked anywhere else than toward her window. She said he did not and it was seconds before the police officer arrived.

The attached photocopy of the drawing (18/284) seems to be a later one. The date has been redacted, and some lines added to the upper left. The changes don't affect the lines that seem to be marking the paths of the men.

The copy linked above is from the 7th Supplemental (3/33).

W-13's FDLE interview corroborates that Zimmerman came to meet him. I don't know that he ever indicated where they met.

Quote
Investigator: When you went out to take a look at the scene, when you first went out there, can you tell me what position, or where the people were standing, or where the kid was laying at?

W-13: Sure. He was, the guy was on the sidewalk, walking towards, this way, towards me, and, the kid was face down on the grass, his feet at an angle coming like, towards, this direction here, facing the patio.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #119 on: March 21, 2013, 06:22:45 AM »
If you're going to claim Zimmerman walked to the "T" as though it's an established fact, please quote the witness statements that show that. I don't recall that it's clear he did that.

I assume NMNM post above covers that.

 

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