Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 81918 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #120 on: March 21, 2013, 06:47:37 AM »
I think Zimmerman walked to the T or close to it because of this 4/4/12 drawing by W-18.
My recollection is that this discussion started when Whonoze was trying to sell his idea that the confrontation didn't begin near the T and the reason the keychain with lit mini flashlight was found there is that Zimmerman dropped it there at this later point.  I don't buy that for a second.  There is no way Zimmerman would have maintained the keychain in his hand during the entire struggle.  It has never been established that any witness observed a flashlight, working or not, in Zimmerman's hands.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #121 on: March 21, 2013, 07:16:24 AM »
My recollection is that this discussion started when Whonoze was trying to sell his idea that the confrontation didn't begin near the T and the reason the keychain with lit mini flashlight was found there is that Zimmerman dropped it there at this later point.

Yes, that's the discussion I linked a few posts back.

For convenience I'll repeat the link.



Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #122 on: March 21, 2013, 08:03:33 AM »
My recollection is that this discussion started when Whonoze was trying to sell his idea that the confrontation didn't begin near the T and the reason the keychain with lit mini flashlight was found there is that Zimmerman dropped it there at this later point.  I don't buy that for a second.  There is no way Zimmerman would have maintained the keychain in his hand during the entire struggle.  It has never been established that any witness observed a flashlight, working or not, in Zimmerman's hands.

George himself established he had a flashlight in his hand, but not which one, as NMNM posted here http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right.

There is no need that he had the mini flashlight in his hand the entire time. He could have had the 'tactical' flashlight in his hand.

And to be more precise, the mini-flashlight appears to be  about 8 feet away from the edge of the sidewalk, according to the total station measurements.

It certainly appears from witnesses witnesses 13 and 18 that it was possible George had the flashlight in his hand and was walking back toward the Tee, and dropped it when the police turned the corner and he put his hands out.




Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #123 on: March 21, 2013, 08:34:17 AM »
It certainly appears from witnesses witnesses 13 and 18 that it was possible George had the flashlight in his hand and was walking back toward the Tee, and dropped it when the police turned the corner and he put his hands out.

W-13 said he saw the small flashlight on the ground adjacent to the 'poop station' when he first looked around the area. I think that would have been before Zimmerman was close to the T, and certainly before the police arrived.

He said it was on the sidewalk. Was that a mistake, or was it moved somehow?

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #124 on: March 21, 2013, 08:37:50 AM »
It certainly appears from witnesses witnesses 13 and 18 that it was possible George had the flashlight in his hand and was walking back toward the Tee, and dropped it when the police turned the corner and he put his hands out.
NMNM supplied this quote from W 13:
Quote
Investigator: Did you, after you went outside with your flashlight, and looked around, was it anything laying on the ground that you noticed out of the ordinary?

W-13: No. Along, along with just the kid laying there, I saw, I noticed there was one, it, it looked like one of those tactical flashlights. And then, towards the corner, on the sidewalk, across from where the, that poop station is, was a, like a little flashlight. I don't know if it could have been, like, it looked like a flashlight to me anyways. So it looked like there was two flashlights on the ground.
  I get from this that both flashlights were on the ground before the cops arrived.  Why wouldn't Zimmerman been using the mini flashlight to navigate the dark crosswalk back from RVC?  He had tried to get the bigger light to work, unsuccessfully; I think he would have used what worked.  Maybe there are other possible scenarios besides the mini light fell out of his hand when Martin smacked him in the face and the bigger light fell out of his pocket when he was wrestling on the ground.  I don't see the reason to look for another one at this point.  I wouldn't put much stock into what Zimmerman remembered having in his hand after the fight started.

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #125 on: March 21, 2013, 08:55:55 AM »
CST Diana Smith, 80/184.

Mercy buckets!

But that raises the question of

"...At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?
Zimmerman: I think my flashlight.
Serino: OK. The flashlight. Was it working or was it not working?
Zimmerman: It was dead.
Serino: It was dead. OK. It was not clicking on. It was in your right hand or left hand?
Zimmerman: I donít know."

If he was holding the big dead flashlight, where was the little one and how did it get turned on?

If he was holding the little one and it was dead, how did it become undead?  Are there zombie flashlights out there we need to fear or make B movies about?

This case is so confusing.   ???

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #126 on: March 21, 2013, 09:12:56 AM »
This case is so confusing.   ???
I have given up hope of trying to separate with certainty, the true, false because it is a lie, false because he forgot in Zimmerman's statements.  If you just concentrate on the information from other witnesses the reasonableness of the self defense claim is pretty evident.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #127 on: March 21, 2013, 09:15:57 AM »
Are there zombie flashlights out there we need to fear or make B movies about?

I'm thinking a Disney cartoon.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #128 on: March 21, 2013, 10:08:10 AM »
W-13 said he saw the small flashlight on the ground adjacent to the 'poop station' when he first looked around the area. I think that would have been before Zimmerman was close to the T, and certainly before the police arrived.

He said it was on the sidewalk. Was that a mistake, or was it moved somehow?

~7:15: And the guy that was standing, where was he when you came around? He was on the sidewalk walking towards my direction, maybe 6 or 8 feet from the cross of the sidewalk.

Which is right where the mini-flashlight was.
 
Witness 18 statement on page 90 of the 1st discovery PDF states that GZ walked 10-20 feet away from TM to the tree and stopped there. The broad built man was standing closer to my window. He was standing close to the small tree....Now I watched a man with a flashlight run down the sidewalk and talk to him (the broad built man)

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #129 on: March 21, 2013, 10:28:43 AM »
It was to Serino, not Singleton, and he said he thought he had the flashlight in his hand. A reasonable conjecture, I think, is that he may have actually put the non-working flashlight in his pocket, and had the small key-chain flashlight in his hand.

So he says he has the non-working flashlight in his hand, but you think he actually put it in his pocket ?

I don't get it.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #130 on: March 21, 2013, 10:38:33 AM »
George himself established he had a flashlight in his hand, but not which one, as NMNM posted here http://www.mysanfordherald.com/view/full_story/19101074/article-Video--audio-tell-George-Zimmerman%E2%80%99s-account-of-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-?instance=home_news_right.

Sorry, he establishes that it was the one that didn't work in his hand.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #131 on: March 21, 2013, 10:55:54 AM »
Sorry, he establishes that it was the one that didn't work in his hand.
I just said that I have given up hope of figuring out the truth of Zimmerman's statements but  I seriously doubt the truth of this one.  Why would he carry it instead of putting it in his pocket since it was useless to him on his return trip from RVC?  One thing I have noticed is that Zimmerman has a problem with English tenses.  He certainly had the large flashlight in his hand at one time and was trying to get it to work.  I doubt that was true when he arrived at the T, coming from RVC.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #132 on: March 21, 2013, 11:01:38 AM »
So he says he has the non-working flashlight in his hand, but you think he actually put it in his pocket ?

I don't get it.

Have you concluded that Zimmerman's statements to SPD do not contain a single inaccuracy?

If Zimmerman planted the keychain flashlight to make it look like the physical conflict started close to the cross walk, it's odd that he would forget to claim it was in his hand.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #133 on: March 21, 2013, 11:18:43 AM »
Have you concluded that Zimmerman's statements to SPD do not contain a single inaccuracy?

No, I have concluded that people pick and choose which "facts" to emphasize or play down, based on how they view the case.

If Zimmerman planted the keychain flashlight to make it look like the physical conflict started close to the cross walk, it's odd that he would forget to claim it was in his hand.

It's also odd he would say "the suspect punched me in the face. I fell backwards onto my back" and yet the fight, by the physical evidence, carried across 30+ feet.

I'm not advocating he placed/dropped his key/light by the tree near the tree, but I am not discounting it as a possibility yet either.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #134 on: March 21, 2013, 11:25:37 AM »
Why wouldn't Zimmerman been using the mini flashlight to navigate the dark crosswalk back from RVC? 

Possibly because he had forgotten that he had it.

 

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