Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 76781 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #135 on: March 21, 2013, 12:16:58 PM »
No, I have concluded that people pick and choose which "facts" to emphasize or play down, based on how they view the case.
I avoid using anything Zimmerman has said in making conclusions.  The exception is real time descriptions he is giving over the phone.  They don't depend on his memory and I don't think he is smart enough to make up descriptive stuff on the fly.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #136 on: March 21, 2013, 12:44:57 PM »
~7:15: And the guy that was standing, where was he when you came around? He was on the sidewalk walking towards my direction, maybe 6 or 8 feet from the cross of the sidewalk.

Good catch. I was overlooking this part in my recent posts.

It's not clear if W-13 saw the flashlight on the ground before or after he saw Zimmerman in the same area. So, at least until W-13 clarifies his recollections, it may have been physically possible for Zimmerman to turn on the flashlight and drop it without this action being seen by W-13 or W-18.

I don't think it's very likely Zimmerman would drop the flashlight accidentally, for no apparent reason, just after turning it on.  If he did, he would have had at least half a minute to pick it up again before Officer Smith arrived.

If Zimmerman hatched a clever scheme to plant exculpatory evidence, he forgot to follow through by claiming to have the flashlight in his hand and turned on when he was attacked.

If I were a prosecutor, I don't think I would want to be arguing such speculations to a jury.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #137 on: March 21, 2013, 01:18:35 PM »
If I were a prosecutor, I don't think I would want to be arguing such speculations to a jury.
The prosecutor has something else in this case?  Even interpreting DeeDee's version of events, in a way favorable to the prosecution, is going to be speculation. 

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #138 on: March 21, 2013, 01:46:38 PM »
The prosecutor has something else in this case?  Even interpreting DeeDee's version of events, in a way favorable to the prosecution, is going to be speculation.

I said 'such speculations' not 'any speculations'.

I don't agree the prosecution has nothing other than speculation. That's just rhetoric.

It's also not on topic. If you want to seriously discuss that, I suggest finding a different thread.

Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #139 on: March 21, 2013, 02:05:26 PM »
So he says he has the non-working flashlight in his hand, but you think he actually put it in his pocket ?

I don't get it.

He said he thought he had the non-working flashlight in his hand, but he couldn't even recall which hand. That's a bit different than your claim that he said he had the flashlight in his had. What don't you get? That Zimmerman might not recall every detail of what he did that night? That he might have decided that it was more useful to have a working flashlight in his hand than a nonworking flashlight?

Are you whonoze under a new name?

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #140 on: March 21, 2013, 02:20:09 PM »
He said he thought he had the non-working flashlight in his hand, but he couldn't even recall which hand. That's a bit different than your claim that he said he had the flashlight in his had.

How is claiming he had a flashlight in his hand, but not remembering which hand materially different than claiming he had a flashlight in his hand ?

In both cases, one of his hands had a flashlight in it.

"...At the time of the encounter with him, was there anything in your hand?
Zimmerman: I think my flashlight.
Serino: OK. The flashlight. Was it working or was it not working?
Zimmerman: It was dead.
Serino: It was dead. OK. It was not clicking on. It was in your right hand or left hand?
Zimmerman: I donít know."


What don't you get?

I don't get why when George himself says the flashlight in his hand (whichever hand that was) was not working, you decide that he actually had it in his pocket. The only reason I can think is because if he had it in his hand, then he would have had to hold on to it all the way from where he claims he was first punched at the tee,to all the way where the altercation ended, some 40 feet away. And that doesn't seem very believable, at least not to me.

That Zimmerman might not recall every detail of what he did that night?

No I get that, his different narratives make it quite clear he doesn't recall a whole lot of details.

That he might have decided that it was more useful to have a working flashlight in his hand than a nonworking flashlight?

No, I also get that it would be more useful to have a working flashlight.

Are you whonoze under a new name?
No.

Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #141 on: March 21, 2013, 02:37:52 PM »
How is claiming he had a flashlight in his hand, but not remembering which hand materially different than claiming he had a flashlight in his hand ?

You left out the "think" part. Saying you think you did something is different than saying you did something. Saying you think you did something expresses a degree of uncertainty. The fact that he couldn't recall which hand shows he had no clear memory of having the flashlight in his hand.

I guess now I think you're not whonoze.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #142 on: March 21, 2013, 03:15:35 PM »
I think that drawing indicates where she saw Zimmerman walk after the shooting.  Just IMO.  For an adult, that drawing was pretty craptastic.

Offline MJW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #143 on: March 21, 2013, 06:32:50 PM »
I think that drawing indicates where she saw Zimmerman walk after the shooting.  Just IMO.  For an adult, that drawing was pretty craptastic.

The witness drawings are uniformly terrible. I don't understand why the investigators couldn't have prepared accurate schematic drawings of the area, so the witnesses could just fill in the locations of TM, GZ, and whatever else they saw. The W18 interview was conduced over a month later, so there would have been plenty of time.

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #144 on: March 22, 2013, 07:54:55 AM »

If Zimmerman hatched a clever scheme to plant exculpatory evidence, he forgot to follow through by claiming to have the flashlight in his hand and turned on when he was attacked.

Yeah, I can't imagine him coming up with such a scheme seconds after having been in a physical confrontation and shooting TM.  For one, after hearing shots fired, you'd have to assume people were paying attention.  Reaching into his pocket, pulling out his keys/flashlight, turning it on and dropping it to the ground in an open area would be fairly easily noticed by any onlookers.  No one mentions any such activity other than GZ had walked in that general direction. 

And as mentioned above. if GZ had hatched this clever plan so quickly, you'd think he would have had his story aligned to take advantage of it.  Its clear there are inconsistencies and times he's being careful in his phrasing of words in his many statements to police, but I don't get the impression that these statements were calculated and concocted based on a plan he devised.  Seems more like someone trying to put the things he remembers in the best light possible for him.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #145 on: March 22, 2013, 08:06:12 AM »
You left out the "think" part. Saying you think you did something is different than saying you did something. Saying you think you did something expresses a degree of uncertainty. The fact that he couldn't recall which hand shows he had no clear memory of having the flashlight in his hand.

I guess now I think you're not whonoze.

Saying you think you did something is indicative of it it being more likely than not.

He didn't once mention the keychain flashlight, just the "non-working" (tactical) flashlight.

Why would you think that he didn't have the flashlight in his hand ?

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #146 on: March 22, 2013, 08:08:06 AM »
Yeah, I can't imagine him coming up with such a scheme seconds after having been in a physical confrontation and shooting TM.  For one, after hearing shots fired, you'd have to assume people were paying attention.  Reaching into his pocket, pulling out his keys/flashlight, turning it on and dropping it to the ground in an open area would be fairly easily noticed by any onlookers.  No one mentions any such activity other than GZ had walked in that general direction. 

And as mentioned above. if GZ had hatched this clever plan so quickly, you'd think he would have had his story aligned to take advantage of it.  Its clear there are inconsistencies and times he's being careful in his phrasing of words in his many statements to police, but I don't get the impression that these statements were calculated and concocted based on a plan he devised.  Seems more like someone trying to put the things he remembers in the best light possible for him.

What do you believe George had in his hands at the Tee , and why ?

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #147 on: March 22, 2013, 08:09:20 AM »
When?  He seems to have been there multiple times before, during and after the conflict.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #148 on: March 22, 2013, 08:12:07 AM »
Before he walked back, after hanging up with non-emergency.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #149 on: March 22, 2013, 08:24:58 AM »
I've answered this before.  I think he had his mini-light on while going back from RVC.  Earlier, on the trip there he had his large flashlight in his hand in a futile effort to get it to work.  Tell us why you care so much about this again.  If you were Whonoze it would be to tell us that the fight didn't start near the T but way south of it after Zimmerman ran down RVC , turned right on TTL and then north up the dog path, etc.

 

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