Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 82081 times)

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Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #150 on: March 22, 2013, 08:29:43 AM »
I've answered this before.  I think he had his mini-light on while going back from RVC.  Earlier, on the trip there he had his large flashlight in his hand in a futile effort to get it to work.  Tell us why you care so much about this again.  If you were Whonoze it would be to tell us that the fight didn't start near the T but way south of it after Zimmerman ran down RVC , turned right on TTL and then north up the dog path, etc.

I'm sorry I missed your earlier answer.

So he had the tactical flashlight on the way out, that he grabbed from his car before he got out. It didn't work, and you believe this because it is confirmed by the tapping sound, correct ?

And although he says in direct response to the question about what he had in his hand at the time of the encounter that he thinks he had the non-working flashlight, you think he had the keychain flashlight. Why ?



Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #151 on: March 22, 2013, 08:30:03 AM »
My first response is, we don't know for certain.  Thinking logically, I would guess he had at least one, possibly 2 flashlights.  I tend to think it was probably 1, the key chain flashlight, not the small tactical one.  I would think whatever was in his hands at the time the physical altercation began would have either been dropped (because the attack was a surprise), or would have been used as a weapon.  IF GZ was prepared for a physical altercation and had it in his hands as a weapon, I can't imagine it would have been easily knocked out of his hands or that we'd see no wounds on TM from its use.  Mind you I am not saying this is impossible, just improbable given the other evidence.

With the confrontation beginning around the T (you'd have to believe multiple witnesses were lying or couldn't possibly discern this from the sounds they heard to believe otherwise) and ending up behind W6's residence, it seems most logical the working flashlight was in his hands and was dropped and the non working flashlight was probably in his coat pocket and fell out at some point during the conflict.

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #152 on: March 22, 2013, 09:07:47 AM »
I'm sorry I missed your earlier answer.

So he had the tactical flashlight on the way out, that he grabbed from his car before he got out. It didn't work, and you believe this because it is confirmed by the tapping sound, correct ?

And although he says in direct response to the question about what he had in his hand at the time of the encounter that he thinks he had the non-working flashlight, you think he had the keychain flashlight. Why ?

I think what is confusing you (and probably GZ) is that GZ had both a working and non working flashlight in his possession.  GZ did not make any mention of having anything in his hands as he gave his statements which tells me its not a detail he has any particular recollection of.  When prompted for this detail, he says, "I think" I had a flashlight and Serinos response "OK, the flashlight" which is an indication that GZ had only mentioned one flashlight prior to this and it was described as non-working. 

Again, if GZ had concocted a plan seconds after the shooting to go back to the 'T' and take out his key chain flashlight, turn it on and drop it on the ground (pretty risky proposition not knowing what witnesses had seen or heard), don't you think he would have mentioned having a key chain flashlight in hand that got dropped when he was punched?  Is it more likely GZ devised such a plan so quickly and executed it with no one noticing, then forgot to mention it in all of his interviews, or that he just wasn't sure what was in his hands when the fight occurred?

What you propose is not out of the realm of possibilities to have occurred.  I put it on even footing with the possibility that TM took control of the gun and shot himself.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #153 on: March 22, 2013, 09:15:42 AM »
And although he says in direct response to the question about what he had in his hand at the time of the encounter that he thinks he had the non-working flashlight, you think he had the keychain flashlight. Why ?
We know from several witnesses and reconstructionists (see for example, Dave Knechel's recent youtube video made 2/26/13) that it was extremely dark on both the cut through around the T and the dog path.  Zimmerman would have wanted to have something to shine on the wet ground, rather than groping along.  We have Serino confirming Zimmerman's claim that the large flashlight wasn't working.  It was found on the ground near where the fight ended, suggesting it fell out of his pocket during the struggle.  Everything Zimmerman has said shouldn't be believed, unless it can be corroborated.  He both forgets and prevaricates and it is often not clear which is operational.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #154 on: March 22, 2013, 09:27:48 AM »
We know from several witnesses and reconstructionists (see for example, Dave Knechel's recent youtube video made 2/26/13) that it was extremely dark on both the cut through around the T and the dog path.  Zimmerman would have wanted to have something to shine on the wet ground, rather than groping along.

I agree it was dark. As to groping along ... there is a sidewalk there. And walked up the path without a working flashlight, correct ? All the way to RVC, right ?

We have Serino confirming Zimmerman's claim that the large flashlight wasn't working.  It was found on the ground near where the fight ended, suggesting it fell out of his pocket during the struggle.  Everything Zimmerman has said shouldn't be believed, unless it can be corroborated.  He both forgets and prevaricates and it is often not clear which is operational.

I appreciate your position of trying to not take Gorge at his word for things that cannot be corroborated.

Under those circumstances, then, there is no clear evidence that the fight started at the Tee, as George claims.  Only Georges uncorroborated word, and a keychain flashlight that is never mentioned 6-8 feet away from the tee. And an unaccounted for length of time George was was in the are of RVC and/or the Tee.


Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #155 on: March 22, 2013, 09:56:55 AM »
I agree it was dark. As to groping along ... there is a sidewalk there. And walked up the path without a working flashlight, correct ? All the way to RVC, right ?

I appreciate your position of trying to not take Gorge at his word for things that cannot be corroborated.

Under those circumstances, then, there is no clear evidence that the fight started at the Tee, as George claims.  Only Georges uncorroborated word, and a keychain flashlight that is never mentioned 6-8 feet away from the tee. And an unaccounted for length of time George was was in the are of RVC and/or the Tee.
For part of the way going from TTL to RVC, his headlights might have illuminated part of the cut through.  Some people claim to hear the sounds of the large flashlight hitting something in the NEN call so it was reasonable that he was trying to get it to work then.  We don't know the point he gave up trying to get it to work and he switched to the mini flashlight.  He wouldn't have needed the light on RVC since there is a street light near the intersection with TTL.  We have only ear witnesses to the physical struggle except for 10 seconds that Witness 6 watched.  Neither he nor anybody else saw any blows land, so if we dismiss Zimmerman's word, we have only the results to attest to his injuries. 

Again, where are you trying to go with this?  If you can prove that this wasn't self defense, there is a thread on How Would the Prosecution Present Their Case for you to give the details.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #156 on: March 22, 2013, 10:00:46 AM »
What says the key chain flashlight was working when it was dropped?
When does GZ identify the larger (here referenced as tactical) flashlight as the non-working flashlight?

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #157 on: March 22, 2013, 10:07:34 AM »
What is not logical is for Martin to approach Zimmerman if Zimmerman had a gun in his hand (heck, any kind of weapon) to ask why he is following him.   And that is without explaining why/how Martin found himself back at the intersection anyway after being off the grid for about 4 minutes.

If Zimmerman had his gun out, why did the altercation last a minimum of 38 seconds? 

Zimmerman did not have to sustain any kind of injury for a self-defense case.  It is based on a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.  He has injuries.  Martin, save the gunshot wound and an abrasion near his knuckle, sustained none.

Fights are fluid.  Movement in any direction is to be expected.

Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #158 on: March 22, 2013, 11:43:45 AM »
What is not logical is for Martin to approach Zimmerman if Zimmerman had a gun in his hand (heck, any kind of weapon) to ask why he is following him.   And that is without explaining why/how Martin found himself back at the intersection anyway after being off the grid for about 4 minutes.

If Zimmerman had his gun out, why did the altercation last a minimum of 38 seconds? 

Good point about the gun. As I said, I wasn't claiming he had it out. It was about using  logic to asses something that has a large component of emotion, not logic.

Zimmerman did not have to sustain any kind of injury for a self-defense case.  It is based on a reasonable fear of death or great bodily harm.  He has injuries.  Martin, save the gunshot wound and an abrasion near his knuckle, sustained none.

Fights are fluid.  Movement in any direction is to be expected.

It's not about self defense right now, for me. It's about trying to suss out what could have occurred at the Tee, and seeing if I can draw conclusions about what I believe is likely to have actually occurred.

And I understand fights are fluid, I think 30-40 feet to be very fluid, considering the actual written and verbal descriptions from George. And if it goes back down the road that we can't believe what George says because memory is imperfect etc, then that needs to be calculated into his version regarding where the initial punch took place.






Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #159 on: March 22, 2013, 11:45:59 AM »
What says the key chain flashlight was working when it was dropped?
When does GZ identify the larger (here referenced as tactical) flashlight as the non-working flashlight?

The keychain flashlight was found on (lighted). I can provide links to discovery documenting this, I think at least one was mentioned upthread.

He and serino are clearly discussing the tactical flashlight, based on context.

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #160 on: March 22, 2013, 12:05:46 PM »
What says the key chain flashlight was working when it was dropped?

It was a crime scene technician who said it was on when she found it.

nomatter_nevermind was kind enough to provide a link
http://forums.talkleft.com/index.php/topic,2052.msg107871.html#msg107871

Granted, that does not prove that it was on when dropped, or for that matter that it was dropped, as opposed to carefully laid on the ground, or anything about when it wound up there, but when she found it, it was on.

I consider "It was on and then got dropped there at some point" the most likely explanation for its presence and state of operation.



When does GZ identify the larger (here referenced as tactical) flashlight as the non-working flashlight?

I'm not absolutely certain that he definitively does.  He mentions "a" non-working flashlight that he thinks was in one of his hands when the physical encounter began, but that would mean either that he was holding the "tactical" flashlight and somehow held onto it from the T to the place where the body was, or that he was holding the "keychain" flashlight, and lost it near the T and it, I guess, turned itself on when it hit the ground.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #161 on: March 22, 2013, 12:12:00 PM »
The keychain flashlight was found on (lighted). I can provide links to discovery documenting this, I think at least one was mentioned upthread.

He and serino are clearly discussing the tactical flashlight, based on context.

Ok...
Quote
Serino: ... you're walking in the darkness out there, you have a flashlight?
GZ: It was dead. I have one, but it was dead.
Serino: Uh, you had to hit it a couple of times, it's on right now, so.
GZ: Mm. Oh it is.
Serino: Yeah. Okay. Um it's probably like the one I have, you got to smack it around a couple of times...

Where is the reference? where is the identification? where or when does George mention the second flashlight? my point really is just that he refers to only one... are we sure which one? If one is safely stowed in his pocket then perhaps he no longer need mention it.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #162 on: March 22, 2013, 12:23:47 PM »
Not trying to drive this too far, just happened to consider this as I read..

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #163 on: March 22, 2013, 12:43:57 PM »
Comment by Clousseau mocking GZ's logic deleted. Adding a smilie button doesn't change the insult. Clousseau seems to be arguing for guilt, as he says for him/her the case is not about self-defense. If any commenter wants to argue for guilt, please take it to another forum. All views are allowed here, in moderation, and blog-clogging, dominating a thread to express one's view GZ's account is not credible, is not allowed. Such commenters will be limited in the number of times per day or thread they can express that view.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #164 on: March 22, 2013, 01:05:03 PM »
Zimmerman's tactical flashlight model is notorious for the switch falling out of alignment, and needing some whacks to get it working. I don't have a cite for that, but it was widely mentioned early on.

Maybe the little flashlight had the same problem. Maybe it wasn't working when Zimmerman when first tried it, or it stopped working soon after. Maybe it turned on when it hit the ground.

I concede that we can't be 'sure' that this string of coincidences didn't happen, but that doesn't mean I have buy it as a reasonable explanation.

 

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