Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 68532 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline clouseau

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #165 on: March 22, 2013, 01:30:41 PM »
Comment by Clousseau mocking GZ's logic deleted. Adding a smilie button doesn't change the insult. Clousseau seems to be arguing for guilt, as he says for him/her the case is not about self-defense. If any commenter wants to argue for guilt, please take it to another forum. All views are allowed here, in moderation, and blog-clogging, dominating a thread to express one's view GZ's account is not credible, is not allowed. Such commenters will be limited in the number of times per day or thread they can express that view.

Sorry about the logic comment.

It's not about self defense right now, for me. It's about trying to suss out what could have occurred at the Tee, and seeing if I can draw conclusions about what I believe is likely to have actually occurred.

I meant that what happened at the Tee will not make or break a case self defense - not the case itself was not about self defense. I thought that was clear in context.

I thought it was a productive discussion about what happened at the Tee, and why the two flashlights ended up where they did.

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #166 on: March 22, 2013, 02:06:28 PM »
Saying you think you did something is indicative of it it being more likely than not.

And when you say you did something, it's indicative that you're certain of it. You've said more than once that GZ said he had the flashlight in his hand when he actually said he thought he had the flashlight in his hand. If I wrote that GZ said he might have had the flashlight in his hand, you'd rightly object that I was slanting the evidence.

Quote
He didn't once mention the keychain flashlight, just the "non-working" (tactical) flashlight.

I already mentioned that was odd. It's at least as odd that he was never asked about the keychain flashlight. The police found it, and according to police report, it was lit. Yet neither Singleton nor Serino asked GZ about it.

Quote
Why would you think that he didn't have the flashlight in his hand ?

If it it were me, I probably would have put the nonworking flashlight in a pocket so my hands would be free. If I had a keychain flashlight, I'd almost certainly carry it in my hand instead of the worthless nonworking one.

Offline clouseau

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #167 on: March 22, 2013, 02:53:29 PM »
Ok...
Where is the reference? where is the identification? where or when does George mention the second flashlight? my point really is just that he refers to only one... are we sure which one? If one is safely stowed in his pocket then perhaps he no longer need mention it.

Upon further review, there isn't any clearer identification of the flashlight than unitron pointed out - the keychain flashlight  was "on" when found, so the tactical flashlight must, by process of elimination, be the flashlight they were discussing.

I don't think there is any dialogue I can point to to prove it.

Offline clouseau

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 21
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #168 on: March 22, 2013, 02:56:22 PM »
And when you say you did something, it's indicative that you're certain of it. You've said more than once that GZ said he had the flashlight in his hand when he actually said he thought he had the flashlight in his hand. If I wrote that GZ said he might have had the flashlight in his hand, you'd rightly object that I was slanting the evidence.

I already mentioned that was odd. It's at least as odd that he was never asked about the keychain flashlight. The police found it, and according to police report, it was lit. Yet neither Singleton nor Serino asked GZ about it.

If it it were me, I probably would have put the nonworking flashlight in a pocket so my hands would be free. If I had a keychain flashlight, I'd almost certainly carry it in my hand instead of the worthless nonworking one.

I was really wondering more if you thought he didn't have the tactical flashlight in his hand because it didn't make as much sense with the physical evidence rather than that it would simply be better to have a working rather than non-working flashlight.

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #169 on: March 22, 2013, 06:48:59 PM »
I was really wondering more if you thought he didn't have the tactical flashlight in his hand because it didn't make as much sense with the physical evidence rather than that it would simply be better to have a working rather than non-working flashlight.

It doesn't make as much sense with the physical evidence if I assume the altercation began near the "T" and moved to W6's backyard, but I doubt you'd be willing to grant me that assumption.

Offline MJW

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1304
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #170 on: March 22, 2013, 07:15:40 PM »
I'll modify my previous comment a little. Something has to explain how the keychain flashlight, apparently turned on, ended up near the "T." Assuming it was GZ's, the simplest explanation is that GZ had it in his hand, and dropped it when he was punched. If that's what happened, then it's unlikely GZ also had the non-working flashlight in his hand. To that extent, the physical eveidence best fits Zimmerman having the non-working flashlight in his pocket.

Offline Departure

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 39
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #171 on: March 22, 2013, 09:44:18 PM »
For part of the way going from TTL to RVC, his headlights might have illuminated part of the cut through.

GZ actually mentions this, at least once: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2cEqhj5dBY&t=40m5s


Some people claim to hear the sounds of the large flashlight hitting something in the NEN call so it was reasonable that he was trying to get it to work then.

GZ mentions this here Link.  Go to 12:12 of "Recording #6 – Detective Serino’s Interview With George Zimmerman – Part 3 (2/29/2012)"

GZ says: That's me hitting my flashlight... as I was walking

I actually go one step further.  In the NEN call, I believe I hear GZ say "sh*t, it doesn't work", or just "sh*t, doesn't work", at 2:44, right after he says his last name "Zimmerman", and as the dispatcher is talking over him.  This is right after the first bangs of the flashlight can be heard (which some people think is GZ doing something with his gun).

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #172 on: March 23, 2013, 06:54:15 AM »
I was really wondering more if you thought he didn't have the tactical flashlight in his hand because it didn't make as much sense with the physical evidence rather than that it would simply be better to have a working rather than non-working flashlight.

I think its possible he had both flashlights in his hands when TM approaches.  GZ mentions his phone was in his pocket (he reached for it as TM approached).  It would be reasonable to think that after hanging up with the dispatcher, he put his phone in his pocket and was devoting full attention to getting the flashlight to work.  When he failed again. reached into his pocket and got the key chain flashlight.  Having both flashlights in his hand as TM approaches, he reaches to get his phone which he said he thought was in his coat pocket.  As he did this, he would have deposited whatever was in that hand into the pocket in exchange for the phone, but the phone wasn't there.  After dropping the phone into the coat pocket, went to get his phone from his pants pocket and got socked, dropped then key chain flashlight on the ground and the struggle continued with the other flashlight falling out in the area the struggle ended.

On another note, I am not sure I understand why you don't believe the evidence that the fight began in the location of the T is convincing.  The witnesses closest to area describe that as the case and I think their descriptions pass the reasonable doubt threshold as long as you find them credible (not to be lying).  To my knowledge, the prosecution hasn't put forth any evidence to the contrary.

Offline Jack203

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 46
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #173 on: March 26, 2013, 09:18:54 PM »

I don't get why when George himself says the flashlight in his hand (whichever hand that was) was not working, you decide that he actually had it in his pocket. The only reason I can think is because if he had it in his hand, then he would have had to hold on to it all the way from where he claims he was first punched at the tee,to all the way where the altercation ended, some 40 feet away. And that doesn't seem very believable, at least not to me.


Why have you been punched several times in the past and the first thing that always occurs is the involuntarily dropping of whatever was in your hands?

Keep grasping at straws.





Offline turbo6

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 66
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #174 on: May 07, 2013, 08:41:09 PM »
The fact the smaller working light was closer to the T, whereas the larger nonworking one was further south suggests to me, the larger one was likely in his coat pocket and perhaps slipped out during the more intense portion of the struggle.

I can't imagine GZ would have bothered with it after it wasn't working after several taps. If its dead, its dead and if banging it several times doesn't work, continuing to do so another dozen times probably won't help either.

Being that it doesn't appear to be larger flashlight, like a Maglite for example, I doubt it would have much merit as a defensive tool, so I don't really see just cause for him to do anything other than slip it back into a pocket after a few attempts to revive it.

At least thats my rationale, GZ could have very well attempted to get it working again after getting off the phone, but it seems like at that point the primary concern would be trying to be aware of your surroundings.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #175 on: May 08, 2013, 12:49:32 PM »
I can't imagine GZ would have bothered with it after it wasn't working after several taps. If its dead, its dead and if banging it several times doesn't work, continuing to do so another dozen times probably won't help either.

On the NEN recording, I think I hear the tapping for over 50 seconds (2:42-3:35). I haven't counted the number of taps.

Offline ding7777

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 806
  • Rate Post +19/-59
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #176 on: June 24, 2013, 07:02:42 AM »
Was the 7-11 bag ever tested for GM's DNA (ala juice can in a bag as a weapon) ?

Offline RickyJim

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1580
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #177 on: June 24, 2013, 07:11:33 AM »
Was the 7-11 bag ever tested for GM's DNA (ala juice can in a bag as a weapon) ?
That has come up in this forum several times.  There is nothing in the discovery to indicate the bag was tested.

 

Site Meter
click
tracking