Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 68500 times)

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Offline dragon ash

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #45 on: July 11, 2012, 04:26:23 PM »
And my eyes are rolling too. Are you speculating here or have you spoken with this witness and asked her "what was said in those multiple 'couple minutes' where apparently nothing was happening?"
I take all statements as evidence as it is, and assume the simplest, most direct explanation possible absent  evidence suggesting something else. Assuming that Martin must have been 'trying to impress his girlfriend' on the phone and using that as a reason to surmise that Martin be behind George, talk to him, wait for him to look down and fumble for his phone, move around him, wait for George to again turn back around, -then- punch him in the nose is silly. The simplest, most obvious thing to do would be to hit George from behind as he walked to his car.

Any scenario that has Martin punching George -has- to account for the fact that George himself says that Martin didn't take advantage of the element of surprise when he easily could have.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #46 on: July 11, 2012, 04:32:55 PM »
I take all statements as evidence as it is, and assume the simplest, most direct explanation possible absent  evidence suggesting something else. Assuming that Martin must have been 'trying to impress his girlfriend' on the phone and using that as a reason to surmise that Martin be behind George, talk to him, wait for him to look down and fumble for his phone, move around him, wait for George to again turn back around, -then- punch him in the nose is silly. The simplest, most obvious thing to do would be to hit George from behind as he walked to his car.

Any scenario that has Martin punching George -has- to account for the fact that George himself says that Martin didn't take advantage of the element of surprise when he easily could have.

Except that - your mix of speculation and conjecture followed by a non sequitur are not compelling.

Offline JW

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #47 on: July 11, 2012, 04:44:02 PM »
And my eyes are rolling too. Are you speculating here or have you spoken with this witness and asked her "what was said in those multiple 'couple minutes' where apparently nothing was happening?"

No kidding. GZ's account of the confrontation sounds more realistic. How many fights start after 2 sentences spoken that aren't really that angry. Sounds completely made up to me.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Three exchanges
« Reply #48 on: July 11, 2012, 11:51:31 PM »
Dee Dee explicitly said the strange man sounded 'kinda angry.' (13:41-14:07)

DeeDee also said he had a deep voice, and she dropped her's in tone to match. GZ doesn't have a deep voice.

Dee Dee should not be considered a "witness". She wasn't there. There is no way to corroborate what she claims weeks later, after all the press coverage. That she doesn't come forward until Crump talks her and her mother into giving him an exclusive interview (he then laughably characterizes as an oral affidavit) and then offers her up to the state is reason enough to discount anything she says.

Who would trust Dee Dee in a matter of importance to them? She is the personification of reasonable doubt.

Offline DarkSkiesRbest

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #49 on: July 12, 2012, 12:16:39 AM »
Whether you believe DeeDee's version of the brief exchange or George's, neither justified physical force.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Three exchanges
« Reply #50 on: July 12, 2012, 12:17:54 AM »
DeeDee also said he had a deep voice, and she dropped her's in tone to match. GZ doesn't have a deep voice.

Dee Dee should not be considered a "witness". She wasn't there. There is no way to corroborate what she claims weeks later, after all the press coverage. That she doesn't come forward until Crump talks her and her mother into giving him an exclusive interview (he then laughably characterizes as an oral affidavit) and then offers her up to the state is reason enough to discount anything she says.

Who would trust Dee Dee in a matter of importance to them? She is the personification of reasonable doubt.

And yet, I think the State of Florida has put a lot of their eggs in her basket.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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What Dee Dee Heard at the "T"
« Reply #51 on: July 12, 2012, 12:53:33 AM »
Dee Dee, as told by Crump on March 20:
Quote
He says, I'm not going to run. I'm going to walk fast. At that point, she says Trayvon -- she hears Trayvon say, why are you following me. She hears the other boy say, what are you doing around here. And again, Trayvon says, why are you following me. And that's when she says again he said, what are you doing around here. Trayvon is pushed. The reason she concludes, because his voice changes like something interrupted his speech. Then the other thing, she believes the earplug fell out of his ear. She can hear faint noises but no longer has the contact. She hears an altercation going and she says, then suddenly, somebody must have hit the phone and it went out because that's the last she hears.

Note 'again', making it explicit that each one repeated his line, for a total of four utterances.

Martin's 'walk fast' reply is missing from the de la Rionda interview of April 3.

In this version, each speaker said his line once (10:36-11:11):
Quote
Why are you following me for?/What are you doing around here?

Then was bumping, and the sound of grass (11:23-42).

11:48-54:
Quote
Dee Dee: And then, next thing I hear, the next thing, the phone just shut off.

De la Rionda: The phone shut off?

Dee Dee: It shut off.

De la Rionda: OK.


12:10-48:
Quote
De la Rionda: So the last thing you heard was some kind of noise like-

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: -something hitting somebody?

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: OK. And, when you heard that noise, something hitting somebody, you did, did you hear the man say anything, or did you hear Trayvon say anything? 

Dee Dee: I can hear a little bit.

De la Rionda: OK. What could you hear?

Dee Dee: I could of just hear, like, like, it's like, the headphones, because of the headphones, he might got off.

De la Rionda: OK.

Dee Dee: But I could still hear a little bit, like.

De la Rionda: OK. What could you hear?

Dee Dee: Like a little "Get off," some stuff.

De la Rionda: You heard "Get off"?

Dee Dee: Like a little "Get off." [crosstalk]

Dee Dee and de la Rionda went a few rounds establishing that she was hearing Martin's voice (12:48-59).

13:00-12:
Quote
De la Rionda: And he was saying what now?

Dee Dee: Like "Get off."

De la Rionda: "Get off"?

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: Is that clear that you were hearing that, or you think you heard that?

Dee Dee: Yeah, I could hear it.

De la Rionda: OK.

Dee Dee: A little bit. It's "Get off, get off." Then the phone just, hung up.

De la Rionda: OK. Alright.

The bump was the last thing she heard, so whatever sound the grass made, and 'get off' (once or twice), must have been simultaneous with the bump. I think it's odd that Martin would say 'Get off' at the very moment he was bumped.

In Crump's version, after Martin was 'pushed', Dee Dee could hear 'faint noises' and 'an altercation'. Crump said Dee Dee thought Martin was pushed because 'his voice changes'. He didn't mention Dee Dee hearing a bump.

We have three versions of the conversation Dee Dee heard:
Quote
Why are you following me?/What are you doing around here?/Why are you following me?/What are you doing around here?

Why are you following me for?/What are you doing around here?/Get off.

Why are you following me for?/What are you doing around here?/Get off, get off.



Offline nomatter_nevermind

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The Conversation at the "T"
« Reply #52 on: July 12, 2012, 07:59:22 AM »
Zimmerman:
Quote
What the f*'s your problem, homie?/Hey man, I don't have a problem./No, now you have a problem.  [2/26-1, 13:29]

You got a problem, homie?/I don't have a problem./Now you have a problem. [2/26-1, 22:36]

You got a problem[?]/No./You do now. [2/26W]

You got a problem?/No./You have a problem now. [2/27S, 2:56]

Yo, you got a problem?/Naw, I don't have a problem, man./You got a problem now. [2/27R, 7:28. After answering a question, GZ repeated his own line without 'man.']

You got a problem? [2/27V, 30:28, 6:49:05]/No, I don't have a problem. [38:24, 6:57:01]

Dee Dee:

Quote
Why are you following me?/What are you doing around here?/Why are you following me?/What are you doing around here?

Why are you following me for?/What are you doing around here?/Get off.

Why are you following me for?/What are you doing around here?/Get off, get off.

Does W-11, the neutral arbiter, give us grounds for choosing between Zimmerman and Dee Dee?

W-18 suggests a longer conversation than any of the other witnesses. I won't discuss her further here.

None of the other witnesses heard anything they recognized as conversation.

W-11 to SPD, 2/2, 1:57-2:06:
Quote
Serino: OK. The conversations that you heard, the yelling before you muted the TV. Could you make out anything that was being said?

W-11: I really couldn't. It was just kinda loud yelling.

2:13-32:
Quote
Serino: How many back and forths did you hear, as far as the yelling, could you approximate?

W-11: I would say maybe three, and I would be kind of just guessing. Like, it would sound like maybe one person said something, someone said something back, and then he said something.

Serino: Something like "Hey!""Hey!""Hey!" Three?

W-11: Maybe, yeah.

Serino: OK.

W-11: But, again, the TV was on, and that was before I muted it.

6:28-36:
Quote
W-11: It just sounded like "Hey! Hey!", not "hey" even, but it was just, you know, yelling, like "'What are you doing?' 'What are you [unintelligible]?'" Kind of like that.

W-11's statement to FDLE/SAO didn't add anything regarding the conversation.

W-11's three utterances match Zimmerman, with the technical exception that he once omitted the third. They also match the two versions Dee Dee gave de la Rionda. They don't quite match Crump's version of Dee Dee's account, which has four utterances.

W-11's '"What are you doing?" "What are you [unintelligible]?"' is closer to Dee Dee's versions than Zimmerman's. In some of Zimmerman's versions, though not the earliest ones, he has only 'No' for the second utterance.

W-11 emphasized her uncertainty. She was 'just guessing' at the number of utterances. She 'really couldn't' make out any words.

Bottom line, I don't think W-11 has given us grounds to say that either Zimmerman or Dee Dee are closer to describing the truth of the conversation.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 08:02:21 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #53 on: July 12, 2012, 08:18:43 AM »
Good analysis and I agree that W11 isn't going to help either side on the content of the initial exchange.  I think the best she does is provide a location of where that exchange took place and maybe the tone of the voices.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #54 on: July 19, 2012, 08:18:46 AM »
I was reading the transcript that Lee M prepared and it struck me that if, and that is a HUGE IF, Trayvon Martin didn't get close to the Green Townhouse and then double back but chose to hide close to the "T" he could have most certainly heard at least some of the conversation that Zimmerman was having with the dispatch.  Especially, if GZ remained at the dog station for a brief amount of time banging his larger flashlight trying to make it work.

I still don't understand how TM could be out of breath from just running around the corner.  I don't understand how after a couple of minutes he ended up basically from where he "lost" GZ.  I have thought that he had to have gone farther down the dog walk then returned.  I still can't assign the lay-in-wait tag to him but this does make me curious.


Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #55 on: July 19, 2012, 08:47:47 AM »
Not a huge if. It was Serino's opinion that TM did not run skip  far.

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #56 on: July 19, 2012, 10:34:18 AM »
It has been suggested elsewhere that perhaps Martin dropped or otherwise lost the tan bag and beverage can at some point and returned to retrieve it.

That could possibly account for doubling back from the area of the Green residence to the area of the "T" and possibly account for the can being separated from the bag.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #57 on: July 19, 2012, 10:47:09 AM »
It has been suggested elsewhere that perhaps Martin dropped or otherwise lost the tan bag and beverage can at some point and returned to retrieve it.

That could possibly account for doubling back from the area of the Green residence to the area of the "T" and possibly account for the can being separated from the bag.

I would be more inclined that the wind blew that bag to its resting place.

I am working from memory here so IIRC:

I wonder why, if they did two swabs on the candy bag that nothing ever came of it.  I never saw anything in the reports.

Offline spectator

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #58 on: July 19, 2012, 08:13:02 PM »
I think what happened at the "T" according to the evidence, is backed up by GZ describing the "skipping", i think TM running and skipping with cocky body language is what GZ was trying to describe, as opposed to a sprinter or someone scared moving deliberate, i think the odds are TM was in place and listening to GZ on the phone and became more enraged and decided to attack, there is so much more that happened that night and George hasn't explained it all in detail,  we have only heard condensed versions for the most part.

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #59 on: July 19, 2012, 08:25:12 PM »
I would be more inclined that the wind blew that bag to its resting place.

I am working from memory here so IIRC:

I wonder why, if they did two swabs on the candy bag that nothing ever came of it.  I never saw anything in the reports.

"I would be more inclined that the wind blew that bag to its resting place."

From where?

 

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