Author Topic: What Happened at the "T"?  (Read 66930 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #90 on: September 19, 2012, 11:37:44 PM »
Not until you pry the shift key from under my cold, dead finger.

 ;D ROFLMAO ;D

Offline DarkSkiesRbest

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #91 on: September 20, 2012, 12:18:00 AM »
Not until you pry the shift key from under my cold, dead finger.
;D

Offline spectator

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #92 on: September 20, 2012, 03:08:30 AM »
Can you explain what 'intersect measurements' means?

There is a thread on the crime scene sketch. Spectator and I participated. It seems you did not, so I don't know if you've seen it.


Seen some of the nonsense out there about George's "reaching for the gun" and the DNA results ... pretty funny stuff.

Sorry i didn't get back,  i've had a few battles going on.
Been working on a utube to show much of the state's BS and ran into a problem.
It looks like i might have to reformat,  i'm crossing my finger it's not a "bulging cap".

Right now i'm on a very old back-up and it's painful to say the least ... but it's workable.


Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #93 on: September 20, 2012, 09:21:39 AM »


Seen some of the nonsense out there about George's "reaching for the gun" and the DNA results ... pretty funny stuff.

Sorry i didn't get back,  i've had a few battles going on.
Been working on a utube to show much of the state's BS and ran into a problem.
It looks like i might have to reformat,  i'm crossing my finger it's not a "bulging cap".

Right now i'm on a very old back-up and it's painful to say the least ... but it's workable.

Completely off-topic, but I think you can PM me here to give greater detail about your encounter with "capacitor plague".

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2013, 08:18:49 PM »
Responding to post on another thread.

With how much precision will earwitnesses (other than the young lady) be able to pinpoint, location-wise, not time-wise,  the beginning of the physical encounter?

What do you think the prosecution might argue on this point? How precise do the ear witnesses need to be to counter that argument?

The prosecution has the burden of proof. What matters is what they will try to prove, and what the evidence is either way.

All the evidence is consistent with the verbal confrontation happening, and physical altercation beginning, where Zimmerman said it did, except for a few of Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman at first didn't remember the altercation moving after it began. After seeing the scene in the reenactment, he recalled trying to push Martin away, and thought he was stumbling southward at the time (7:53-8:35).

Zimmerman never remembered any lateral movement after the two were on the ground. In the light of my limited experience with wrestling in high school gym class, I think that's quite unsurprising. As I recall, it was routine to suddenly find that my opponent and I were at the edge of the ring.

I don't think the prosecution will try to argue that the altercation started anywhere but where Zimmerman said it did. The overwhelming weight of evidence is the other way.

« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 08:20:57 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2013, 08:35:26 PM »
I don't think the prosecution will try to argue that the altercation started anywhere but where Zimmerman said it did. The overwhelming weight of evidence is the other way.
???  Are you sure you mean those last three words?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #96 on: March 17, 2013, 08:54:33 PM »
Are you sure you mean those last three words?

Yes.

I thought it was clear. Is 'anywhere but' confusing you by introducing another negative?

Try it like this: 'I don't think the prosecution will try to argue [X]. The overwhelming weight of evidence is the other way.'

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #97 on: March 17, 2013, 09:14:56 PM »
Is the meaning, "I think the prosecution will acknowledge that the altercation started near the "T" since the overwhelming weight of the evidence says it did."?  If that is what you mean, what about DeeDee?

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2013, 11:31:58 PM »
Is the meaning, "I think the prosecution will acknowledge that the altercation started near the "T" since the overwhelming weight of the evidence says it did."?  If that is what you mean, what about DeeDee?

What about her?  She never said that Martin was by the "T" intersection despite the fact that we know he ended up there. 

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2013, 11:53:09 PM »
Is the meaning, "I think the prosecution will acknowledge that the altercation started near the "T" since the overwhelming weight of the evidence says it did."? 

I don't see a reason for them to stipulate to that.

If there is a good argument for the altercation starting somewhere other than where Zimmerman said, I would like to know what it is.

Quote
what about DeeDee?

What about her?

Seriously, I don't know what you are getting at.

The timeline is problematical for both the prosecution and the defense. The prosecution's theory, as presented in the charging affidavit, fails to explain why Martin wasn't already home by the time Zimmerman got off the phone. Zimmerman's statements don't explain why he wasn't back in his truck by the time the confrontation started. Those are the places the affidavit, and Zimmerman's statements, say the respective principals were going. As I've said before, it's like it all happened in a Zeno's paradox universe, where no one can reach a destination no matter how much time they have to get there.

So far, I have seen no sign of the prosecution revising their theory. They just might brazen it out, hoping for a math-challenged jury.

If the prosecution does change their theory, Dee Dee might embellish her story accordingly. She's got 'a couple of minutes' that are a clean slate. She can say anything happened in that time without directly contradicting herself.

If the prosecution's theory changes, but Dee Dee's story stays much the same, they will have to work around the problem. They could argue that it isn't likely Martin would detail his every move, and that Dee Dee may have misunderstood some of the things he did say.

Of course that would cast some doubt on the rest of Dee Dee's story. But it's minor compared with other issues. If the jury forgives Dee Dee for lying about the hospital, and letting Crump shape her account of the final dialogue, I don't think they'll even care that she was confused about which direction Martin was walking.

Sorry if that completely misses the point of the question.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:54:57 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline unitron

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #100 on: March 18, 2013, 07:06:46 AM »
Responding to post on another thread.

What do you think the prosecution might argue on this point? How precise do the ear witnesses need to be to counter that argument?

The prosecution has the burden of proof. What matters is what they will try to prove, and what the evidence is either way.

All the evidence is consistent with the verbal confrontation happening, and physical altercation beginning, where Zimmerman said it did, except for a few of Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman at first didn't remember the altercation moving after it began. After seeing the scene in the reenactment, he recalled trying to push Martin away, and thought he was stumbling southward at the time (7:53-8:35).

Zimmerman never remembered any lateral movement after the two were on the ground. In the light of my limited experience with wrestling in high school gym class, I think that's quite unsurprising. As I recall, it was routine to suddenly find that my opponent and I were at the edge of the ring.

I don't think the prosecution will try to argue that the altercation started anywhere but where Zimmerman said it did. The overwhelming weight of evidence is the other way.

You forgot to bring along  "...where witnesses say the confrontation started."

Which is kind of important since what I have been asking about the whole time is if anyone other than Zimmerman can place the beginning of things at the T specifically, instead of just out back of their house somewhere.

Zimmerman's "I must have stumbled forward a whole bunch while I was getting knocked straight to the ground" routine has me wondering if any of it happened at the T.

Quite separate from the question of whether or not Zimmerman is guilty of anything is the question of whether any reliance can be placed upon his memory.


Offline clouseau

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #101 on: March 18, 2013, 07:23:21 AM »
Responding to post on another thread.

What do you think the prosecution might argue on this point? How precise do the ear witnesses need to be to counter that argument?

The prosecution has the burden of proof. What matters is what they will try to prove, and what the evidence is either way.

All the evidence is consistent with the verbal confrontation happening, and physical altercation beginning, where Zimmerman said it did, except for a few of Zimmerman's own statements.

Zimmerman at first didn't remember the altercation moving after it began. After seeing the scene in the reenactment, he recalled trying to push Martin away, and thought he was stumbling southward at the time (7:53-8:35).

Zimmerman never remembered any lateral movement after the two were on the ground. In the light of my limited experience with wrestling in high school gym class, I think that's quite unsurprising. As I recall, it was routine to suddenly find that my opponent and I were at the edge of the ring.

I don't think the prosecution will try to argue that the altercation started anywhere but where Zimmerman said it did. The overwhelming weight of evidence is the other way.

I'm sorry if I missed this upthread, but was there a discussion/reasoning behind why the phone and the flashlight are at the area near the end of the fight, as opposed to near the Tee ? My first thought is that it would be more likely for those items to come loose at the start of the fight, rather than the end.

Also, any discussion on George returning to the area of the Tee after the fight, close to where his car keys were located ? This is according to witness 13 and witness 18.

Offline leftwig

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #102 on: March 18, 2013, 07:25:58 AM »
I think NMNM addressed this quite well.  Its not odd that a struggle would move 35-40 feet in 60+ seconds.  Its not odd that a participant might not be aware of exactly what movements took them from point A to point B.  GZ was asked a question and he attempted to provide some details that he wasn't completely sure of.  He should have just answered that he didn't recall other than being knocked down and trying to get away from TM.  Given that W6 details the two moving 5-10 feet on the ground in the 10 seconds he observed them, I don't think the location of where the conflict ended is an issue for the defense.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #103 on: March 18, 2013, 10:10:33 AM »
The Affidavit of Probable Cause in this case has this:
Quote
Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home.
Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.
I think the first sentence would have been OK, if it had been toned down to "Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher and continued to try to see if he could locate Martin."  Unless they have damning GPS data, there is no way they can even make the first sentence, as is, even plausible.  The Witness 11 and keychain evidence seem to place the start of the confrontation near the T, something that seems incompatible with Martin trying to return to his home.  I think the prosecution wants the jury to infer that Zimmerman was "following" in the sense that for a period of time before the confrontation, their relative positions and velocities were something like:

Zimmerman---->Martin--> where the arrows show both the direction and magnitude of the velocities. 

With or without DeeDee's testimony, how they might prove that is the big mystery.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: What Happened at the "T"?
« Reply #104 on: March 18, 2013, 01:34:15 PM »
You forgot . . .

Guess again.

I'm sorry you found my response unsatisfactory. It was not because I 'forgot' anything.

 

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