Author Topic: Who is screaming on the 911 call?  (Read 39023 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline JW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« on: July 11, 2012, 11:09:51 AM »


It is just my opinion but I think it is George. After hearing his voice and even the comparison yells made by police his voice sounds close enough to the yells.

 Opinions?

Offline dragon ash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
  • Rate Post +0/-0
  • Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #1 on: July 11, 2012, 11:34:00 AM »
I don't see how it can be George. The screams on the 911 call are pure, animal-like shrieks of terror. George states that he didn't know right away that his shot had hit Martin...and yet the screams STOP INSTANTLY with the gunshot.

After the gunshot, George speaks to two witnesses and seems fairly....lucid, if short of breath. He says 'don't worry about calling 911, I called 'em (he hadn't, btw)', and he calmly responds to the other witness who asks what kind of gun he used to shoot the kid lying face down in front of him.

Seems like it'd be hard to go from 'pure, unfiltered terror' to calm and lucid (if a bit short of breath) that quickly if he had really been in a 'sh*t I'm going to die' experience.

There is one witness who says, naturally, that he'd expect the person on the -bottom- to be screaming for help. I think it's at least as natural to think that the kid who's scared of getting shot would also be screaming.


Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #2 on: July 11, 2012, 11:38:52 AM »
Actually, if it is something that the FBI couldn't determine, this thread calls for nothing but speculation.  Nothing can be based on evidence, IMO.

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2012, 11:42:42 AM »
I'm a bit surprised this hasn't been a more discussed/debated point.  Its quite obvious the prosecution is relying on being able to show that its TM screaming as its one of the only facts (someone was screaming for help and they have a witness saying it was TM) that they mention in their affidavit for probable cause. 

Both families are mostly going to cancel themselves out, though I imagine Serino will be called to testify that Tracy initially said it was not his son, so if anything, the family's statements appear to balance in Z's favor. 

The FBI experts said the recording is too poor, though there are other voice experts who say they can tell who isn't screaming.  The prosecution is going to fight like heck to get those experts in, but they have to overcome their own experts that say the audio isn't good enough and the voice is too stressed to try and make a determination.  There of course would also be the issue of trying to compare a calm speaking voice inside a car with a screaming voice of desperation outside from far away.  Also, if the screaming voice was Z's, he'd have a broken nose at this point which would also alter his voice.  I'd be quite surprised if any expert testimony gets in saying it wasn't Z and I think its most likely the experts are going to say we can't tell from the 911 call.

The witness testimony is kinda mixed as many indicate the screams sound like that of a young boy.  Of course there wasn't a young boy involved in the conflict, so I'm not sure how the judge/jury would see that.  The defense would like to have a recent recording of TM's voice.  IT doesn't seem clear if one exists.  His photos would obviously indicate that he has hit and gone through puberty, but that can't show how deep his voice is, other than showing he's not boy like.  W6 appears to be the best witness to identify the voice having Martin on top and yelling from what he believes to be from the guy on the bottom.  Austin could help as well as he see's the man in red on the ground and he yelled for help, but Austin's mom seems to have some reservations about her sons testimony, so we don't know what he will end up testifying to. 

The physical injuries seem to back Z screaming for that length of time.

The words captured on the recording also seem to help Z.  They certainly sound like the desperate screams of someone in fear for their life and in pain.  I guess one could argue that TM could be fearing for his life if Z had his gun drawn, but you don't hear any mention of a gun or any warning related to that in the screams.  This is obviously going to be the prosecutions claim, but its pretty difficult to believe that TM and Z could have been struggling over a gun for this amount of time with Z getting hit multiple times and the gun never going off and none of the cries for help mentioning anything about a gun.  Also, no witnesses ever mention seeing a gun, but obviously it is dark.

IF I had to put odds on how the court would see the screams, I'd say its right around the legal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt that Z is screaming.  If you are asking what I personally believe, I'd say I'm at least 95% sure that the screams for help are Z's.  IF I could hear TM's voice, it would sway my opinion.

Offline cboldt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1262
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2012, 11:58:56 AM »
The FBI experts said the recording is too poor, though there are other voice experts who say they can tell who isn't screaming.  The prosecution is going to fight like heck to get those experts in, but they have to overcome their own experts that say the audio isn't good enough and the voice is too stressed to try and make a determination.

In its May 12 discovery exhibit, the state lists Mssrs/ Owen and Primeau as "B" witnesses.  Same with Marr and Nakesone of the FBI.  This suggests that the state has no intention of calling these experts to testify.

Offline dragon ash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
  • Rate Post +0/-0
  • Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2012, 12:00:18 PM »
The only thing about W6 - and he clarifies this in his later statement - is that he only assumed the guy on the bottom was screaming.

Martins' back was to him, and George's head was away from him. He wouldn't be able to *see* who was screaming.

I wonder if they asked him if afterwards if the guy he talked to sounded like the guy that had just been screaming.

There is one other thing that's slightly related - I played ice hockey as a kid. Numerous broken noses. Talking -hurts-. Breathing -hurts-. But George seems to be doing just fine, both the night of the shooting and the next day, and his voice sounds the same in later court dates etc.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2012, 12:03:42 PM »
I think the strongest argument against Martin for calling for help, is that he didn't explain the situation to W-6. Martin was on top. It was dark, and Zimmerman's gun is dark in color. If the gun was out it wouldn't be easy for a bystander to see. If Martin was calling for someone to help him disarm Zimmerman, why didn't he explain that to W-6?

Offline dragon ash

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 274
  • Rate Post +0/-0
  • Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2012, 12:07:17 PM »
I think the strongest argument against Martin for calling for help, is that he didn't explain the situation to W-6. Martin was on top. It was dark, and Zimmerman's gun is dark in color. If the gun was out it wouldn't be easy for a bystander to see. If Martin was calling for someone to help him disarm Zimmerman, why didn't he explain that to W-6?
Because he was facing away from the homes. He wouldn't have seen W-6.

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2012, 12:10:01 PM »
I don't see how it can be George. The screams on the 911 call are pure, animal-like shrieks of terror. George states that he didn't know right away that his shot had hit Martin...and yet the screams STOP INSTANTLY with the gunshot.


Oh it was George.  He knew his shot hit Trayvon. He didn't desperately stick his gun in the kid's side. He pointed the gun at him, shot and then didn't need help anymore.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2012, 12:16:55 PM »
He wouldn't have seen W-6.

W-6 spoke. He asked what was happening. He said he was calling 911.

If Martin was calling for help, wouldn't that have gotten his attention?

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2012, 12:42:10 PM »
In its May 12 discovery exhibit, the state lists Mssrs/ Owen and Primeau as "B" witnesses.  Same with Marr and Nakesone of the FBI.  This suggests that the state has no intention of calling these experts to testify.

Well let me ask this about a category B witness.  Just as background, I am not a lawyer, but I assume category B means they might be called to rebut testimony, say if someone says it is Z screaming, then would these witnesses be potentially called to rebut?  If so, would they only be called to rebut other expert testimony, or could they be called to say rebut Z's dad from saying its him screaming and how much of their expert opinion on who is screaming be allowed?

I do think the FBI experts pretty much put any idea to rest that the prosecution will use experts to testify with any certainty about who is/isn't screaming for help, but since these experts show up on the witness list at all has me thinking the prosecution is prepared to try and get their testimony in in some manner.

Offline JW

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 71
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2012, 01:06:04 PM »


The screaming stopping at the same time as the shot doesn't really wash with me because the attack stopped also. But the biggest thing that makes that point "pointless" is firing a gun usually will make a person's ears ring instantly. That would be enough to startle someone screaming, even the person who fired the shot. So the notion of Martin stopped screaming because he had been shot is false to me. He didn't die instantly and if the attack stopped George had reason to stop.

Another myth floating around is how could George yell for help if Trayvon was covering his mouth. The huge flaw in that is Trayvon didn't cover George's mouth the whole time. After listening to the 911 call it also sounds like some of the yelling was muffled as well.

Something else I find trouble some is that Tracy Martin originally told Serino it wasn't Trayvon yelling for help on the 911 call but then changed his story. Too fishy...

Offline cboldt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1262
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2012, 01:40:24 PM »
... but I assume category B means they might be called to rebut testimony, say if someone says it is Z screaming, then would these witnesses be potentially called to rebut?

Category "A" experts, under Rule 3.220, are "(7) expert witnesses who have not provided a written report and a curriculum vitae or who are going to testify."

Category "B" experts covers all the other experts.  Notes pertaining to Rule 3.220 contain the remark, "Category B witnesses include, but are not limited to, witnesses whose only connection to the case is the fact that they are the owners of property; transporting officers; booking officers; records and evidence custodians; and experts who have filed a report and curriculum vitae and who will not offer opinions subject to the Frye test."

If Zimmerman retains a voice expert, he has to advise the state of this.  The state can then proceed to seek a voice expert to use in rebuttal (could be Owen and/or Primeau - situation changed due to defense action), but the state might as well offer the FBI conclusion in rebuttal, that it's not possible to make a reliable enough determination given the evidence in hand.

We're getting closer to witness lists being locked in.  Docket sounding is scheduled for August 8, and if the rules are followed (they aren't) then all discovery is supposed to have provided by that date, and both the state and defense should be prepared to declare "ready," or not, for trial.  See Motion for Continuance of Docket Sounding for FL 18th Circuit.  Defense gets one "no questions asked" 4 week continuance.

Offline Kyreth

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2012, 01:41:19 PM »
IF I had to put odds on how the court would see the screams, I'd say its right around the legal standard of beyond a reasonable doubt that Z is screaming.  If you are asking what I personally believe, I'd say I'm at least 95% sure that the screams for help are Z's.  IF I could hear TM's voice, it would sway my opinion.

I tend to agree, I'm convinced it was George.  Some think that it had to have been Trayvon because it was a younger sounding voice...well, IMO George's voice has that quality.

And, it's only a couple words ("Hello" twice), but you can hear Trayvon in the 7-11 in the security footage, and to me he seems to have a noticeably deeper voice.

Start just after 1:10 here

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2012, 02:02:29 PM »
Thank you for humoring my request on explaining the role of the category B expert witnesses.  It just seems to me the prosecution has tried quite a few "tricks" in this case and I was wondering if they might try to use Owen as a rebuttal witness and "sneak" in some comments about why he feels the voice isn't Z's where as the FBI experts would only testify to not being able to make a determination due to poor sound quality. 

I also agree with the idea that we cant make a determination on who was screaming based on the  screams stopping after the shot.  The screams appear to me to be tied to fear and/or an painful reaction.  Martin's attack came to an abrupt end after the shot so TM couldn't be inflicting any more pain and Z's fears could have turned to any number of emotions at the instant he realized TM was no longer controlling/beating him.


 

Site Meter
click
tracking