Author Topic: Who is screaming on the 911 call?  (Read 43992 times)

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Offline lin

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #180 on: May 06, 2013, 08:45:52 AM »
It's difficult to see what the jury would learn by having a bunch of Martin's friends and family insisting it was Martin, and a bunch of Zimmerman's friends and family insisting it was Zimmerman. How could they weigh such evidence?

It will likely be more complicated than just an equal stream of opposing witnesses, which will actually make it much easier to weigh, imo.  As NMNM noted above, GZ has the neighbor witnesses who will likely be deemed more credible than some other witnesses because they are less interested.  There may be other defense witnesses with a similar disinterest; former co-workers, etc. 

Conversely, iirc, both TM's father and his half-brother, who should both be very familiar with TM's voice, were at best less than certain in their prior ID, with the father initially outright denying it was his son screaming.  If the settlement information is admitted, it may provide a motive for changing from an uncertain ID to absolute certainty and this may outweigh the "better sound system and speakers" argument from the prosecution.

If I were on the jury, I would find Witness #6's testimony on this point, if verified by tests, very persuasive but I would dismiss the testimony of every friend and relative that says they could identify the screams as their guy.  À chacun son goût.   :D

There is little doubt in my mind that such evidence would bolster the voice ID of Witness #6 to at least some of the jurors.  However, in conjunction with the other witnesses, I doubt they will dismiss his ID without that corroboration.  Instead, were I a juror, Witness #6 would be added to the list of pro-GZ witnesses with no motive to tell anything but what they honestly and impartially believe.  In addition, the jurors will hear the recording for themselves and likely will hear at least parts of other recordings of GZ's voice.  Hopefully, they will also hear a recording of TM's suspected* much deeper voice.  At least some will likely rely on their own ears in addition to the witnesses, adding their own analysis to the other disinterested witnesses.

*There is the one word recording of TM saying "hello" from the 7-11 video, and the known voices of TM's family members which sound much deeper than GZ's, suggesting his voice was likely also deep, imo.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #181 on: May 06, 2013, 09:27:23 AM »
If the prosecution experts are admitted, could the defense subpoena the FBI experts?

Offline Departure

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #182 on: May 06, 2013, 08:46:51 PM »
If the prosecution experts are admitted, could the defense subpoena the FBI experts?

NMNM, do you happen to have a link to the FBI's official conclusion regarding their attempts to ID the source of the screams?

Offline Cylinder

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #183 on: May 06, 2013, 09:10:54 PM »
NMNM, do you happen to have a link to the FBI's official conclusion regarding their attempts to ID the source of the screams?

FBI Digital Evidence Lab - Report of Examination

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Critical listening and digital signal analyses further revealad that the screaming voice on the 911 call is of insufficient voice quality and duration to conduct meaningful voice comparison with any otherr voice samples primarily due to the screaming voice being: (1) produced under an extreme emotional state, (2)  limited in the number of words and phrases uttered, (3) superimposed by other voices most of the time, and (4) distant, reverberant and very low signal level.

Offline Departure

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Offline Cylinder

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #185 on: May 06, 2013, 09:22:54 PM »

Offline Cylinder

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #186 on: May 06, 2013, 09:32:14 PM »
Kenneth W. Marr was an expert witness in the OJ Simpson robbery/kidnapping trial.

Offline Jack203

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #187 on: May 13, 2013, 07:15:46 PM »

I told O'Mara a long while ago that he should have an expert check if there was a distinct echo to differentiate somebody screaming while facing the houses across the walk from W #6's lawn from somebody facing W #6.  I have no idea whether or not he followed up on that.

I'm guessing no.

Offline hexx

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #188 on: May 31, 2013, 06:19:01 AM »
The paper by the two authors appeared to be more credible, and it's results where indecisive.

If I estimate the probability that it was GZ who was shouting, based on wittness statements, forensic evidence, logic and common sense being around, say 90%, how should I update my estimate in light of the uncertain results of experts impressions,  stating there might be 60% match with Martin and maybe about the same with GZ ?

I'd say it won't change a thing.


Like if there's a doctor with a patient that presents symptoms and signs of two conditions, one very rare and one very common.

The laboratory test results then have 70 percent match with both conditions - should doctor flip a coin or go with the more common, more probable disease?

The expert who heard a carnival barker or a religious zealot appears to have worked  under the influence of confirmation bias because of the one sided, misleading media propaganda. He apparently reproduced his earlier analysis that contained probabilities of what kind of voice a young person would have. What the heck? wasn't he given samples of Trayvon Martin's voice found in the phone?

Offline ding7777

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #189 on: June 15, 2013, 05:29:40 PM »
The screams lasted 40(?) seconds.  If TM  was screaming, what is the State claiming was GZ doing during those 40 seconds that the evidence supports?   

Offline cboldt

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #190 on: June 15, 2013, 05:39:43 PM »
The screams lasted 40(?) seconds.  If TM  was screaming, what is the State claiming was GZ doing during those 40 seconds that the evidence supports?

The state has not made any specific claims as to how things happened.  It never produced a statement of particulars.  The MO is to leave scenario building to the readers' imagination.  I must say, that has been a spectacularly successful approach, given the vast expanse of theories floated by the supporters of the prosecution of Zimmerman.

All the state has said is, "Zimmerman confronted Martin and a struggle ensued.  Witnesses heard people arguing and what sounded like a struggle.  During this time period witnesses heard numerous calls for help and some of these were recorded in 911 calls to police.  Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice calling for help as Trayvon Martin's voice."

The state will persist is letting the listener fill in the blank spaces.  If the state floats any specific theory, then it risks that theory failing against the evidence.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #191 on: June 15, 2013, 06:15:58 PM »
cbolt, suppose the prosecution presents a case as you say, can the defense ask for dismissal after the prosecution rests?  At that point there would not be a self defense jury instruction in play so the prosecution might, up to that point, fail to address that issue but still have presented enough to cover the claims in the APC.  It seems that the defense will have to put on a case in order to at least get the jury instruction and only be able to ask for dismissal after they rest.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #192 on: June 15, 2013, 06:29:18 PM »
cbolt, suppose the prosecution presents a case as you say, can the defense ask for dismissal after the prosecution rests?  At that point there would not be a self defense jury instruction in play so the prosecution might, up to that point, fail to address that issue but still have presented enough to cover the claims in the APC.  It seems that the defense will have to put on a case in order to at least get the jury instruction and only be able to ask for dismissal after they rest.

If the state doesn't produce evidence that supports the charge, then defense can and should move for a judgment of acquittal, even before the defense puts on its case.  I don't see how the state can put on its case and not have self defense come up in cross examination, so there will be evidence of self defense (some of which is inherent in the state's case if the performance is faithful to the admission that the state has no evidence that Zimmerman struck Martin or initiated a physical altercation; plus evidence that Zimmerman has injuries).

Nelson will deny a motion for judgment of acquittal.  The defense puts on its case which will serve to create even more reasonable doubt.  The jury instructions don't come into play until the court sends the jury out to deliberate.  The judge doesn't need detail instructions like the layman does.  As the DCA said, it is confident that the judge can apply the law.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #193 on: June 16, 2013, 03:52:59 PM »
It seems that the defense will have to put on a case in order to at least get the jury instruction and only be able to ask for dismissal after they rest.

That is not correct. The testimony and evidence from the state's witnesses and even circumstantial evidence is sufficient.  On May 31, 2013, Nelson was reversed by the DCA for for not giving a self defense instruction.  in Spurgeon v. State. The court said

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the trial court's discretion is more restricted in criminal proceedings "because a criminal defendant is entitled to have the jury instructed on his or her theory of defense if there is any evidence to support the theory and the theory is recognized as valid under Florida law." Id. The trial court should not weigh the evidence when determining whether to give the requested instruction. Id.; see also Pope v. State, 458
So. 2d 327, 329 (Fla. 1st DCA 1984) (stating that "t is axiomatic that a defendant is
entitled to have the jury instructed on the rules of law applicable to his theory of defense
if there is any evidence to support such an instruction, and the trial court may not weigh
the evidence in determining whether the instruction is appropriate") (citing Smith v.
State, 424 So. 2d 726, 732 (Fla. 1982)). The jury—not the trial judge—decides the weight of the evidence. Vila, 74 So. 3d at 1112. "

"The question of self-defense is one of fact, and is one for the jury to decide where the facts are disputed." Id.

Additionally, a defendant is not required to testify at trial to receive a jury instruction on self-defense. Sipple, 972 So. 2d at 915. A defendant's statements admitted into evidence at trial may be sufficient evidence for a self-defense instruction. Id. The cross-examination of State witnesses can also support a claim of self-defense. Id. at 916. Finally, if a jury can reasonably infer from circumstantial evidence presented at trial that the defendant had the state of mind necessary for self-defense, then the defendant is entitled to a jury instruction on self-defense. Johnson v. State, 634 So. 2d 1144, 1145 (Fla. 4th DCA

I have provided other cases many times. Gregory v State

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A criminal defendant is entitled to have the jury instructed on the law applicable to his or her theory of defense where there is any evidence to support it, no matter how weak or flimsy.

Villa v State: (cited by the court in the May 31 case

Quote
The State contends that Vila was not entitled to the instruction because the evidence that he presented was minimal and self-serving. This argument lacks merit as a defendant is entitled to a self-defense instruction if there is any evidence to support his defense. Wright v. State, 705 So. 2d 102, 104 (Fla. 4th DCA 1998) (holding that defendant is entitled to jury instruction on his theory of case if there is any evidence to support it, no matter how flimsy that evidence might be);...

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Who is screaming on the 911 call?
« Reply #194 on: June 16, 2013, 04:07:15 PM »
Also Ricky, on the motion for judgment of acquittal. The defense makes one at the end of the states case, and if it puts on evidence, again at the end of its case.

The  judge can (and must) grant a motion for judgment of acquittal at the close of the Government's case or close of all the evidence  if the state fails to present evidence legally sufficient to overcome the defense theory of self-defense. See the 2011 Stieh case.

Quote
But where the evidence " 'leaves room for two or more inferences of fact, at least one of which is consistent with the defendant's hypothesis of innocence, [it] is not legally sufficient to make a case for the jury.' "

...Here, although there was conflict among the testimony of the victim, Flaherty, the victim's girlfriend, and Stieh, the conflict was relatively minor and did not rebut or otherwise foreclose Stieh's theory of innocence. Therefore, the trial court should have granted Stieh's motion for judgment of acquittal.

Also, this legal discussion is better taken to a different thread. This one is about screams and voice.

 

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