Previous NEN Calls

[turbo6]

Nothing wrong with reviving an old thread, I hope.  I find the following contrasts with the NEN call in the Martin case.

1. No strong emotional reaction to the suspects.  He doesn't use profanity or any characterization besides suspicious - no f*****g p**ks or a**h**s.  Is he on his good behavior just because the dispatcher in the previous calls is a female?

With Martin, things seemed to be more personal. They were both aware of each others presence long before the actual confrontation. On the NEN call when Zimmerman describes Trayvon's "staring" and walking towards him with this hand in his waistband, its plausible to think Martin may have employed intimidating mannerisms to get Zimmerman to back off.

Zimmerman did seem a bit concerned when Martin was right by his truck, inquiring as to how soon an officer would arrive at that point. Clearly Martin wasn't trying to allude or avoid and at the very least during the call he seemingly wanted to make Zimmerman feel unwelcome or uncomfortable.

I think the strong language thereafter from GZ was more a result of Martin coming up to him in what he perceived as a threatening manner than just simply because he thought he was doing something wrong and was about to get away.

[DebFrmHell]

See?  I don't see that at all.  It isn't like he said THAT Effing Punk or THAT A-hole. To me, it is Zimmerman speaking of the situation in generalities and not singling out Martin at all.  It falls more in line with the "we've had some break-ins" statement at the beginning of the NEN.

Perspective.  It's a funny thing. 

[nomatter_nevermind]

To me, it is Zimmerman speaking of the situation in generalities and not singling out Martin at all. 

I agree that Zimmerman wasn't singling Martin out. That doesn't mean he wasn't reacting to Martin's behavior. Those are different things.

Martin was there. The other 'punks' and 'a*holes' weren't.

[nomatter_nevermind]

3. Quite cautious about getting close to the suspects.  Didn't want to attract attention by getting the license number of their white Chevy Impala in 4; didn't want to approach the guy hanging around Taafe's house in 6.  With Martin, the suspect actually approached his car and looked at him, tugging his waistband, so you would think he would be even more cautious.  But he was uncharacteristically reckless on 2/26/12

I think Zimmerman explained this himself, the first time Singleton asked him for his story.

2/16-1, 2:44-53

Zimmerman: Just tonight?

Singleton: Yeah, what, or whatever led up to this. Anything you want to tell me about what happened and why it ended up, what it ended up to, to where this, this, this boy got shot.

Zimmerman responded by talking about the burglaries and starting the Neighborhood Watch. As Zimmerman was explaining why he thought Martin was suspicious, they were interrupted by someone calling Singleton. Singleton asked Zimmerman who to contact about the security cameras. When that was done, this:

2/26-1, 9:44-10:03

Singleton: OK, let's get back to where you were. OK. You started a neighborhood watch group?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. And?

Zimmerman: I had called before, and the police had come out. But, these guys know the neighborhood very well, and they would cut in between buildings and lose -

Singleton: You're saying "these guys." Who are "these guys"?

Zimmerman: The people coming in, the burglars.

Audio

This was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night. He didn't mention the dispatcher until much later, when the NEN call came up in narrating the events of the night.

I think this response carries the explanation for Zimmerman actinging differently that night. What he had been doing wasn't working, and he decided to try a more active approach.

Sean's questions weren't fundamentally different from Sharon's or Renee's. It was Zimmerman who was different that night.

[MJW]

This was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night. He didn't mention the dispatcher until much later, when the NEN call came up in narrating the events of the night.

Sounds to me like this was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to a question about why he started the neighborhood watch program.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Sounds to me like this was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to a question about why he started the neighborhood watch program.

I didn't hear Singleton ask that.

Singleton asked what led up to the shooting. Zimmerman responded by saying he started a NW because of burglaries. Then he moved on to the events of 2/26.

After the interruption, Singleton backtracked a bit. She mentioned Zimmerman starting the NW. Then she said 'And?', which I take to mean 'What happened next?' I don't see interpreting that 'And?' to mean 'Why did you start the NW?'

I take Zimmerman's response as continuing to fill in the background to the shooting. Why he started the NW had already been explained.

[MJW]

I didn't hear Singleton ask that.

You didn't? She says, "You started a neighborhood watch group?" Zimmerman replies, "Yes, ma'am." Singleton then says, "OK. And?" If I were Zimmerman, I would take that to mean, "Go on..." That is, as a invitation to expand on what he just said. Maybe you wouldn't take it that way, but I certainly thinks it's a reasonable interpretation, and I venture to say that's how most people would take it.

[nomatter_nevermind]

If I were Zimmerman, I would take that to mean, "Go on..." That is, as a invitation to expand on what he just said.

Exactly so.

I think she was asking him to go on explaining what NW had to do with the shooting. I don't think she was asking Zimmerman to explain why he started the NW. He had already explained that. Did Singleton say something to suggest she wasn't satisfied with his explanation?

[nomatter_nevermind]

4. Except for the two inconsequential calls 3 and 5, the approximate timings were between 1:42 and 2:07 minutes, must less time than with the call with Nofke. 

Three different things went into making that call so long.

The first was Martin approaching Zimmerman. That resulted in Zimmerman updating his description of Martin. Btw, I think this part of the NEN call casts doubt on the very beginning of Zimmerman's story, when he passed Martin closely before stopping to call. It sure sounds to me like Zimmerman getting a close look at Martin for the first time.

The second thing prolonging the call was Zimmerman forgetting the name of TTL. That resulted in Zimmerman giving lengthy directions, correcting himself a few times, and in he and Sean going back and forth with Zimmerman's home address and the canceled mailbox meeting.

The third thing was Martin running. Zimmerman didn't say much during the 'wind noise' period, just the whispered curse, 'Yeah', 'OK', 'George', and 'He ran'. Besides prolonging the call directly, this episode interrupted Zimmerman's directions, so he had to start them over again.

Martin approaching and passing the truck took about 40 seconds. Zimmerman's aborted directions took about 20 seconds, compared with about 10 seconds for 'Altermese Bentley'. Then Zimmerman reported Martin running, and it was another 20 seconds before the call returned to routine by Sean asking Zimmerman's name. The second directions period was about 20 seconds again. Then the address and mailbox exchange was about 30 seconds.

That adds up to about two minutes. Subtract that, and the time is in the ballpark with the earlier calls.

[MJW]

Did Singleton say something to suggest she wasn't satisfied with his explanation?

Was there something in the rest of Singleton's interview that suggested to you that her questioning was so precise and focused that she wouldn't return to a matter that was already covered?

[RickyJim]

The way I view the main difference between the 2/26 call and the previous ones is that on 2/26 Zimmerman had the idea in his head that he should try to keep the suspicious person in view, whether by car or on foot.  In the first call he seems to have wanted to do that too, but Shelly nixed that plan.  If he had been in the same mood as in the five subsequent calls he would have told Sean that he didn't want to be noticeable or approach the suspect closer after, "Okay, just let me know if this guy does anything else".   And certainly there would not have been any need for Sean to say, "We don't need you to do that" as far as following on foot.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Was there something in the rest of Singleton's interview that suggested to you that her questioning was so precise and focused that she wouldn't return to a matter that was already covered?

No. She did so at times. I still don't understand why you think she was doing so at the point we are discussing.

You said yourself that 'And?' suggests '"Go on..."', not 'Go back'.

[MJW]

No. She did so at times. I still don't understand why you think she was doing so at the point we are discussing.

You said yourself that 'And?' suggests '"Go on..."', not 'Go back'.

Because she asked, ""You started a neighborhood watch group?" That seems like she's asking Zimmerman to talk about the reasons behind starting the neighborhood watch group. Even if that's not what she intended, that's could be how Zimmerman interpreted it. That's how I interpreted it.

I don't see how you can call what Zimmerman said a "spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night" when Singleton had just brought up starting the neighborhood watch -- an event that happened months before.

[DebFrmHell]

Because she asked, ""You started a neighborhood watch group?" That seems like she's asking Zimmerman to talk about starting the neighborhood watch group. Even if that's not what she intended, that's could be how Zimmerman interpreted it. That's how I interpreted it.

I don't see how you can call what Zimmerman's said a "spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night" when Singleton had just brought up starting the neighborhood watch -- an event that happened months before.

I might be wrong but every time the detectives and even the Dispatcher interrupted Zimmerman, he began again at the point of the last question.  If he has ADD that may be a pattern that he just does and really has little to do with the person asking the questions.

Just IMO.  I usually get change back from my two cents.

[leftwig]

I think Zimmerman explained this himself, the first time Singleton asked him for his story.

2/16-1, 2:44-53
Zimmerman responded by talking about the burglaries and starting the Neighborhood Watch. As Zimmerman was explaining why he thought Martin was suspicious, they were interrupted by someone calling Singleton. Singleton asked Zimmerman who to contact about the security cameras. When that was done, this:

2/26-1, 9:44-10:03
Audio

This was Zimmerman's spontaneous response to an open-ended request for an explanation of what happened that night. He didn't mention the dispatcher until much later, when the NEN call came up in narrating the events of the night.

I think this response carries the explanation for Zimmerman actinging differently that night. What he had been doing wasn't working, and he decided to try a more active approach.

Sean's questions weren't fundamentally different from Sharon's or Renee's. It was Zimmerman who was different that night.

AFAIK this is the first occurrence of GZ being in his vehicle when calling NEN.   Asking if you had gotten a plate number (past tense) is different than asking to "let me know if he does anything" and" which way is he running" (present tense).  That GZ did not exit his vehicle while TM was in site or near his vehicle tells me he wasn't interested in being any more confrontational than the previous calls (something he was berated for by Serino).  During the re-enactment GZ's recollection was the operator asking him to get to where he can see TM (either fabrication or his recollection of the interpretation to "let me know if he does anything").  GZ also apparently stops immediately when the operator says that they didn't need him to follow TM.  I think it would be foolish to discount the difference in situations as well as the discussion with the operator in analyzing why GZ's actions were different this time.  I do think guys getting away in the past played a part as well.