Author Topic: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes  (Read 17662 times)

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Offline unitron

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Re: First Circle
« Reply #30 on: August 08, 2012, 01:26:31 PM »
I am still unsure what circling entails. Assume someone is walking across the street on a path that would bring him to the driver door of an idling car. As the person gets within 5 feet of the door , he turns toward the rear of the car and crosses the street behind the car, He then continues forward walking up the passenger side of the car and beyond.
Thats a 270 degree arc. Is it considered circling?

Back when all we had were the phone call and "Zimmerman's relative or friend said that Zimmerman said" to go on, I was thinking that somewhere along the line Martin walked around the truck, like maybe when if was on TTL he comes up behind it from the west, makes a wide arc to the south to the southern edge of the east west leg of TTL and then comes back more northerly as he gets east of the truck, and then someone just misunderstood "walked around the truck" for "walked all the way around the truck".

But apparently Zimmerman means there was a full 360 degree circumnavigation.

The 3/4 circle idea is interesting from the standpoint of "misinterpreted into something it actually wasn't", i.e., the truck is in the way and Martin walks around it, but wasn't actually circling it like a shark or a pack of wolves.  The only thing is, (at this pont I think) he winds up headed east towards the "T", which means he has to be approaching the truck from due south or due north, and I'm having trouble working out where the truck would have to be for that to make sense.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #31 on: August 09, 2012, 02:22:03 PM »
the circling does not have to do with Twin Lakes or the shortcuts. Please discuss the circling on the thread regarding Zimmerman's statements.

Offline Pooh

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2012, 06:52:31 AM »
Correct me if I'm wrong.  I'm not as up on the physical locations as some of the other evidence.  Frank Taafe's address is 1460 RVC.  I believe his house was the one Z speaks of as having been broken into and being unsecured (doors and windows unlocked and garage door open) during the previous incident.  That is the same house that Z saw TM looking into.  If I've got all those details right, then it makes sense that TM came through that shortcut and was beside Taafe's house when Z first spotted him and found him suspicious.

Z then drives around to somewhere near the clubhouse and calls the NEN.  At that point he sees TM "behind him", so TM must have come through the shortcut by Taafe's house and then walked around RVC and passed Z near the clubhouse.

In his reenactment video at about 2:30, GZ says he saw TM "leisurely looking at the house." He does not say "looking into the house." During his actual NEN call, he also describes TM as "looking at" houses.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2012, 04:42:20 PM »

I don't know if Zimmerman ever said that Martin was looking into 1460.

In his written statement Zimmerman said Martin was 'looking into homes.'

In his last interview, Zimmerman said Martin was 'looking into the houses' (2/29-3, 0:51-1:03).

Back on topic, it's interesting that Zimmerman never said he thought Martin came in through the shortcut. He never mentioned the shortcut.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #34 on: November 21, 2012, 07:10:59 PM »
The shortcut has come up recently on two other threads.

W-8

Media

I think it will be useful to document, as best I can, the negative point that Zimmerman did not tell SPD that he saw Martin enter the complex.

Audio of Zimmerman's statements to SPD.

Zimmerman's written statement (2/26)

Reenactment video (2/27)

Download video of CVSA interview (2/27)

The first time Zimmerman described the initial sighting, he did not say where Martin was.

2/26-1, 4:08-22
Quote
Singleton: OK. What made them suspicious?

Zimmerman: This gentleman in particular? I had never seen him in the neighborhood. I know all the residents.

Singleton: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: It was raining out, and he was leisurely walking, taking his time, looking at all the houses.

Later in the same interview, Zimmerman spoke of seeing Martin in front of a specific house, later identified as 1460 Retreat View Circle.

2/26-1, 10:28-42
Quote
Zimmerman: And like I said, I saw him walking in the neighborhood, the same, in front of the same house that I had called the police before, to come to because this guy leaves his doors unlocked and stuff.

The 'like I said' probably refers to the first quoted statement. It's confusing, since Zimmerman went on in the same sentence to mention the specific house, which he actually hadn't mentioned before.

Singleton asked Zimmerman to mark on a map the location of Martin on first sighting.

2/26-2, 0:27-35
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Singleton: OK. Can you put an "X" on here, where you first saw the guy?

Zimmerman: Right, right about here.

A B&W photocopy of the map has been released. I've posted an enlarged section, showing the location marked by Zimmerman.

The location is between 1460 and 1510, about even with the porch roofs of 1460 and the other units of the same building.

In the reenactment, Zimmerman said that he first saw Martin walking, 'Right in front of' 1460 RVC, and pointed out an area 'between these two poles.'
 
Reenactment, 0:00-0:21
Quote
Smith: . . . pick him up at?

Zimmerman: Right here. Right in front of this house.

Smith: OK. Right in front of 1460?

Zimmerman: Yes, sir.

Smith: Alright. And, what was he, was walking in between the buildings, or - ?

Zimmerman: He was walking like in the grassy area, like, up towards, kinda between these two poles. Like I said, it was rainy. And he wasn't, he was just leisurely looking at the house.

In his written statement on 2/26, Zimmerman described the first sighting without specifying a location.

Quote
Tonight, I was on my way to the grocery store when I saw a male approximately 5'11" to 6'2" casually walking in the rain looking into homes.

Below are the remaining instances that I have identified, of Zimmerman commenting on Martin's location on first sighting in his SPD interviews.

CVSA, 25:36-26:02, 6:44:13-39
Quote
Zimmerman: And I was leaving my neighborhood when I saw this guy, walking slowly in front of a house, looking towards the house.

2/29-1, 4:36-44
Quote
Zimmerman: Two or three weeks prior to that, I'd seen somebody looking in a window of the house that he was in front of.

2/29-1, 7:41-8:15
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Zimmerman: So when I saw him, in the same area, in front of the guy's house that I know [unintelligible] had been unsecured, and he was looking into the house, I just thought something doesn't fit right here.

Serino: And this is, but this is one, this is the one prior to this one, right? 

Zimmerman: No.  This is, I'm sorry. That's why I felt this was suspicious.

Serino: OK. OK. What did you see Trayvon doing, that caught you as being suspicious?

Zimmerman: He was looking at the house, intently. And then -

Serino: What, the same house?

Zimmerman: The same house that, yeah, that had, I had called about before.

2/29-1, 8:45-48
Quote
He was just walking slowly [unintelligible] the grass and onto the sidewalk.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2013, 10:04:34 AM »
Responding to post on another thread.

I've mentioned a few times that in the final draft, there is a statement that Zimmerman observed Martin entering the complex.

I suspect that was the result of someone not being nitpicky enough about Zimmerman talking about first seeing Martin where he would have been if he'd just walked in via the gap between houses that was known to be a shortcut and point of entry.

If Martin was there the most likely explanation is that he did indeed just walk through that gap

That's conventional wisdom. I've been skeptical of it for some time.

I think the gap between 1460 and 1510 is called a 'shortcut' because people walking north on the western leg of RVC, and planning to go west on Oregon Ave., can use it to save substantial walking distance over walking east to the gate and then west on Oregon Ave.

For someone going the way Zimmerman said Martin was going, I don't think it would save any walking distance. Using the path function of the Google Earth ruler, the distances seem about the same.

Someone might use 1460/1510 if they wanted to avoid the gate, if they hadn't gotten the code or didn't want to have to remember the code, or just didn't like going through gates for whatever reason. (There has been conflicting information on whether the gate would have been locked that night.)

Why not use 1350/1410? It looks to be open. Maybe one of the units has a mean dog. Or something might have changed since that picture was taken.

If we believe Dee Dee's mail shade story, there's 15 mystery minutes in that part of Martin's timeline. If we're mail shade skeptics, then it's half an hour. The shorter time is enough to walk back and forth across the complex.

Offline leftwig

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2013, 12:17:25 PM »

If we believe Dee Dee's mail shade story, there's 15 mystery minutes in that part of Martin's timeline. If we're mail shade skeptics, then it's half an hour. The shorter time is enough to walk back and forth across the complex.

I'm with you on being skeptical of the mail thingy story, but if we are to believe Dee Dee's account, TM got there at 6:54 and didn't move from there until about 7:04, by which time he had already spotted GZ looking at him.  GZ's story is that he doesn't see TM by Taffe's, near the cut through, until right before he called NEN, which would put it sometime between 7:08-7:09.  We see TM walking home from the 7-11 just before 6:30, so if he was just passing through the short cut at Taffe's around 7:08, thats 38 minutes to cover about .6 miles (or less than 1 mph) if walking straight back from the store.  The only way to get Dee Dee and GZ's accounts to match is for TM to be in the complex under the mail shade around 6:54, then walk around the complex for GZ to eventually see him by Taffe's 15 minutes or so later.

Speaking of another issue with Dee Dee's account.  She has TM running into the complex around 6:54 and under the mail thingy.  The phone hung up as he was running in, so she called him back which matches the 6:54 incoming call.  That call lasted 18 minutes according to the record which means it lasted until 7:12.  During this time, TM took another incoming call (7:04).  So, according to Dee Dee's statement, TM notices GZ watching him at some point while under the mail thingy.  After some time passes, TM decides to walk from under the mail thingy and the phone hangs up, but according to records, that call lasted until 7:12.  Now I could see this as being an honest mistake as they did have a bunch of phone calls that stopped and started during the day, but it seems pretty specific that she ties an event (TM leaving the mail thingy) to a call dropping and then her calling back.  This leaves several possible scenarios.

1. There were several other short calls between Dee Dee and TM before the 6:54 call that lasted 18 minutes and ended with TM running from GZ.  Its possible TM running into the "gated place" and leaving shelter corresponds to one of these earlier calls, but this would mean that TM hadn't yet seen GZ.  This would fit a timeline of a return trip from the store better if he had walked from 6:30 to say 6:45 and then ran into TTL.  The problem with this and Dee Dee's story is that this means TM was walking around somewhere in the "gated place" well before he and GZ spot each other.   If he was walking around inside the gated place from 6:45 until GZ spots him, then it would beg the question of what was he doing?

2. Using the same possibility that TM leaving shelter corresponds to an earlier call, not the one that started at 6:54, its possible TM took shelter at another location.  Dee Dee says TM took shelter inside the "gated place".  Are either of the other two complexes in route to/from the 7-11 gated?  This scenario would probably make the most sense for GZ to see TM some 15 minutes later entering RTL by Taffe's but again, it doesn't fit Dee Dee's narrative of TM leaving shelter after he and GZ notice each other, unless he took shelter multiple times that she fails to mention.

3.  Dee Dee doesn't have a clue where TM is from the time he leaves the store until he notices GZ watching him and TM is just walking around wherver from 6:30 until 7:08ish and TM never sees GZ checking him out while he was under shelter.  I think this is the most likely scenario. 

I think the idea of TM hanging out under the mail thingy was fed to her to provide an innocuous explanation for why it took TM so long to get home.  Her story of when their phone conversations started and ended matched with the phone records don't fit that scenario.  TM may very well have taken shelter somewhere on the way home, but it doesn't seem likely that it was under the mail thingy in RTL for 15 minutes or so.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2013, 07:13:25 PM »
And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC.  If you add 15min it gets you to 6:54. 

NoMatter didn't you download the video to your Photobucket or Gimp?


Now that I have the new computer, I can't see the video for a refresher.  There is a different video player at Axiom and for some reason it won't download for me.  Sorry.

 :o

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2013, 03:22:49 AM »

NoMatter didn't you download the video to your Photobucket or Gimp?

No. I saved some stills, but I never downloaded the whole video.

I've never put a whole video on my Flickr page. I would like to try doing that.

Looking at the page with the M&I Bank videos, I don't see how they can be downloaded. Are you sure it's possible with those videos?

Quote
And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC.

That's 6:36.

You are correct on wiper movement. I just checked.

More on timelines thread.

Quote
If you add 15min it gets you to 6:54.

I'm not getting the point of this.

More on timelines thread (separate post).

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #39 on: January 23, 2013, 09:04:50 AM »
No. I saved some stills, but I never downloaded the whole video.

I've never put a whole video on my Flickr page. I would like to try doing that.

Looking at the page with the M&I Bank videos, I don't see how they can be downloaded. Are you sure it's possible with those videos?

That's 6:36.

You are correct on wiper movement. I just checked.

More on timelines thread.

I'm not getting the point of this.

More on timelines thread (separate post).

It is the 15 min call that we are using to place Martin in some area.  He ran into a gated area.  He went to a mail thingy.  I think the natural assumption is to place him at The Retreat.  If he was at the mail kiosk there, then why would Zimmerman spot him in the area of the shortcut into the property?   TO ME, it seems reasonable that he entered either Lakes Edge (my choice) or The Colonial judging by the weather conditions around the 6:35 range.  That still gives him time to wait out the rain and proceed to The Retreat and the shortcut.

How would anyone know that their phone call lasted exactly 15 minutes rather than 10min or 20min without looking at records?

Offline unitron

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #40 on: January 23, 2013, 11:18:59 AM »
Responding to post on another thread.

I suspect that was the result of someone not being nitpicky enough about Zimmerman talking about first seeing Martin where he would have been if he'd just walked in via the gap between houses that was known to be a shortcut and point of entry.

If Martin was there the most likely explanation is that he did indeed just walk through that gap

That's conventional wisdom. I've been skeptical of it for some time...

I acknowledged it as the most likely explanation for him being there if he was there, but I don't claim that it's the only possible one, and the point I was making was that someone probably misunderstood Zimmerman saying he saw Martin near the shortcut as a claim that he'd seen him come in through the shortcut.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #41 on: January 23, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »
the point I was making was that someone probably misunderstood Zimmerman saying he saw Martin near the shortcut as a claim that he'd seen him come in through the shortcut.

I understand that. I didn't comment on that because I don't disagree, or have anything to add.

Quote
I acknowledged it as the most likely explanation for him being there if he was there, but I don't claim that it's the only possible one

That's what I disagree with. I'm not saying just that there are other possible explanations. I don't agree that Martin entering by 1460/1510 is the most likely explanation.

Another possibility is that Zimmerman made it up. On the police call recording, Zimmerman seemed to be getting his first close look at Martin about a minute into the call.


Offline unitron

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #42 on: January 23, 2013, 07:01:09 PM »
I understand that. I didn't comment on that because I don't disagree, or have anything to add.

That's what I disagree with. I'm not saying just that there are other possible explanations. I don't agree that Martin entering by 1460/1510 is the most likely explanation.

Another possibility is that Zimmerman made it up. On the police call recording, Zimmerman seemed to be getting his first close look at Martin about a minute into the call.

If one limits oneself to taking Zimmerman's word for it that he spotted Martin there shortly before he started talking to dispatcher Sean, then it seems to me that his presence there is most likely due to having come in through the short cut, especially if he had been sheltering at mailboxes in the next neighborhood over while chatting with the young lady.

Otherwise it seems you'd have Martin entering via the front gate, maybe hanging out near the clubhouse for a while, then turning back to the west to go stand near Taaffe's house long enough to be seen and then going back to the east again to get home via Twin Trees.

I could see him going south on the west leg of RVC and then east on Lonesome Pine or whatever that short street is, and stepping up out of the street to keep from getting splashed by Zimmerman, but then why would he change his mind and head north and then east past the clubhouse?

I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible that he was walking around in the dark and the rain looking for a place to burgle, but it seems unlikely, so if he was near the short cut the way Zimmerman says, any explanation other than that he just came through the short cut seems to have a very low probability.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2013, 02:42:05 AM »
I'm not saying it's absolutely impossible that he was walking around in the dark and the rain looking for a place to burgle

Straw man.

Chad said that Martin went out, in part, because he was 'bored'. (0:44-48)

Brandy Green gave boredom as the only motive for Martin's going out, when she was emotional on the day after his death, before Crump and Julison came up with treats for the 'little brother'. (1:12-17)

Brandy also said that Martin 'don't know anybody here'. To me, that suggests that 'bored' was a polite way of saying that Trayvon didn't care for Chad's company.

I find more support for this in the SAO interview summaries, sometimes reading between the lines. Brandy (p. 32) thought Chad was included in the movie plans. Chad (p. 39) said nothing about going to a movie, and claimed all three of the boys 'were hanging out'. But Stephen (p. 9) may not have mentioned Chad after they took him home from the game, and it seems clear he and Trayvon went to the theater without him.

Chad is similarly absent from Stephen's reminiscences, as reported by Esquire. Even taking Chad home isn't mentioned (p2).

Quote
That last Saturday, after the football game, Trayvon and Boobie went back to Brandy's place, a lovely three-bedroom unit with granite countertops and hardwood floors they barely noticed.

After leaving 7-11, Martin trended homeward. Maybe he did want to watch the basketball game. If he didn't care to get home before the game started, it makes sense to me that he might have backtracked, wandering around looking at whatever there was to be seen. He was walking to relieve boredom, and maybe to avoid Chad. It didn't matter where he walked.

We don't know if the gate was locked that night. We don't know if Martin had the code. But Tracy Martin said that he thought Martin would come in through the gate (0:52-1:07). That suggests that Tracy thought Martin would be able to use the gate if wanted to.

I have yet to see an explanation for why 1350/1410 could not be used as a shortcut.

Without some reasons for thinking Martin could not get in either through the gate or 1350/1410, I think those routes are more likely than 1460/1510.

Offline leftwig

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #44 on: January 24, 2013, 07:38:54 AM »
The only explanation I can think of for using the 1460/1510 shortcut is if he was coming from the neighboring complex. 


 

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