Author Topic: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes  (Read 17255 times)

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Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #45 on: January 24, 2013, 08:07:59 AM »
snipd>
After leaving 7-11, Martin trended homeward. Maybe he did want to watch the basketball game. If he didn't care to get home before the game started, it makes sense to me that he might have backtracked, wandering around looking at whatever there was to be seen. He was walking to relieve boredom, and maybe to avoid Chad. It didn't matter where he walked.

We don't know if the gate was locked that night. We don't know if Martin had the code. But Tracy Martin said that he thought Martin would come in through the gate (0:52-1:07). That suggests that Tracy thought Martin would be able to use the gate if wanted to.

I have yet to see an explanation for why 1350/1410 could not be used as a shortcut.

Without some reasons for thinking Martin could not get in either through the gate or 1350/1410, I think those routes are more likely than 1460/1510.

Looking around at what can be seen, aimlessly walking in the dark and rain is exactly what raised suspicion in GZ, IMO rightfully so.

If he comes in through the pedestrian gate and is first seen at the area of 1460 RVC that too becomes suspicious behavior, same causation.

OTOH if he runs in through the gate... while it is raining and seeks shelter under the mail kiosk that is not a suspicious activity.
I do not believe that happened, for something raised the suspicion in GZ to the level that he thought it necessary to call the authorities. I do not believe that TM ever took shelter under the mail kiosk on TTL if he had that point would have been easily defined for GZ to relay to Sean in the NEN call. It is after all a Federal offense to tamper with the US Mail and a suitable reason to call... it was not mentioned, ever by GZ.

Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #46 on: January 24, 2013, 09:40:28 AM »
Looking around at what can be seen, aimlessly walking in the dark and rain is exactly what raised suspicion in GZ, IMO rightfully so.

If he comes in through the pedestrian gate and is first seen at the area of 1460 RVC that too becomes suspicious behavior, same causation.

OTOH if he runs in through the gate... while it is raining and seeks shelter under the mail kiosk that is not a suspicious activity.
I do not believe that happened, for something raised the suspicion in GZ to the level that he thought it necessary to call the authorities. I do not believe that TM ever took shelter under the mail kiosk on TTL if he had that point would have been easily defined for GZ to relay to Sean in the NEN call. It is after all a Federal offense to tamper with the US Mail and a suitable reason to call... it was not mentioned, ever by GZ.

Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

The trellises have been added since the shooting, IIRC.  Taafe had a big stink about it going on with the HOA beforehand because of all  the foot traffic.  He was told that they would do something about the fence ending at his back yard. 

There was a news video showing people using that shortcut afterwards, too, and I don't remember seeing the trellises there.

Sorry, working all from memory so don't take it to the bank.  I blame age and medications.  LOL.

Offline unitron

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #47 on: January 24, 2013, 02:17:52 PM »
Looking around at what can be seen, aimlessly walking in the dark and rain is exactly what raised suspicion in GZ, IMO rightfully so.

If he comes in through the pedestrian gate and is first seen at the area of 1460 RVC that too becomes suspicious behavior, same causation.

OTOH if he runs in through the gate... while it is raining and seeks shelter under the mail kiosk that is not a suspicious activity.
I do not believe that happened, for something raised the suspicion in GZ to the level that he thought it necessary to call the authorities. I do not believe that TM ever took shelter under the mail kiosk on TTL if he had that point would have been easily defined for GZ to relay to Sean in the NEN call. It is after all a Federal offense to tamper with the US Mail and a suitable reason to call... it was not mentioned, ever by GZ.

Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

I'm pretty sure it's not a federal offense to stand near mailboxes to get out of the rain.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2013, 03:53:20 AM »
Are either of the other two complexes in route to/from the 7-11 gated?

Lakes Edge is gated. Colonial Village is not.

Earlier I was thinking that they both were, and so were equally valid candidates. This gives Lakes Edge the lead over Colonial Village.

Offline leftwig

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2013, 08:58:32 AM »
I'm pretty sure it's not a federal offense to stand near mailboxes to get out of the rain.

Of course its not.  However, an unrecognized person wearing a hoodie and looking at the mailboxes would possibly raise the suspicion of the NW leader and result in a call to NEN.  Personally, I don't think TM was ever stationed at the mail kiosk at RTL.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2013, 02:09:07 AM »
Re: the shortcut, from a personal visit to TRATL I have always maintained that 1350/1410 is TM's likely point of egress as you walk along the sidewalk it provides a clear access to RVC a most inviting point to enter the community despite the trellis... the trellis' have no doubt been added to stifle such traffic.

Does it look like this?

The Google Earth street views were made in April 2011, almost a year before the shooting.

Your use of singular 'trellis', and the allusion to stifling traffic, make me wonder if the gaps have been closed with some crossbars or additional latticework.   

Esquire, 11/13/12, p. 3
Quote
And there it is up ahead, the shortcut back into the Retreat at Twin Lakes. Coming from this direction on foot, there's no question it's the quickest way to go. Later they'll put up a sign: PRIVATE PROPERTY NO TRESPASSING VIOLATORS WILL BE PROSECUTED and a series of little arbor poles for foliage to grow on, but even then they'll leave a gap big enough for a man to slip through. For Trayvon, it's a straight shot down an open lawn, between two buildings and onto the Retreat's main street.

This is where Zimmerman sees him.

The 'little arbor poles' sounds like the photo I linked. They are said to be a recent addition, without a source cited. The Esquire article makes a number of unsourced claims about RATL. (Thread discussing the article.)

Were arbor poles erected between 1460 and 1510, to match those already in place between 1350 and 1410? Or did the writer have a mistaken belief that the 1350/1410 poles had been recently added?

If the writer thought Martin entered by 1350/1410, then he would seem to be unaware that Zimmerman clearly identified 1460 RVC as the location where he first spotted Martin.

The Esquire article is a puff piece about Trayvon Martin and his family. It doesn't say much about the case. I don't think it's worth the time to look into the writer's background, but I suspect the assignment was given to 'human interest' writer rather than a crime reporter.

Another passage suggests the writer believed Martin entered and left by 1350/1410 (p. 1).

Quote
So Trayvon probably took the shortcut that cut through between the two buildings at the end of the lane. There the complex wall stopped and the foliage never grew in, probably because so many people took the shortcut.

We know this is the route he took on the way back, and that was his fatal mistake.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2013, 02:49:37 PM »
Does it look like this?
Yes, however there does not appear to be as many 'Arbor Poles' installed now, I believe residents possible removed some or the picture date is wrong and more have been added.
Quote
The Google Earth street views were made in April 2011, almost a year before the shooting.
  it did not look like that in April of 2012 on my first visit I saw appx eight of the poles and trellises, nearest the brick wall.
Quote

Your use of singular 'trellis', and the allusion to stifling traffic, make me wonder if the gaps have been closed with some crossbars or additional latticework.   
I intended to pluralize trellis by adding the apostrophe... I could have/should have written trellises (I still think that looks wrong). There is nothing additional added, it is perhaps just localized language but the lattice work attached to the poles are as AFAIK "fan trellises" I know no other name for them. There is nor wire, fencing, additional lattice or other, as the Esquire writer inferred you can just walk between them.
Quote

Esquire, 11/13/12, p. 3
The 'little arbor poles' sounds like the photo I linked. They are said to be a recent addition, without a source cited. The Esquire article makes a number of unsourced claims about RATL. (Thread discussing the article.)

Were arbor poles erected between 1460 and 1510, to match those already in place between 1350 and 1410? Or did the writer have a mistaken belief that the 1350/1410 poles had been recently added?
No, not on my last visit... there is no reason for them to be added between 1460/1510 there is a natural barrier the retention pond; you do however have me wondering so I will take a drive by there ASAP to familiarize myself again with the specifics.
Quote

If the writer thought Martin entered by 1350/1410, then he would seem to be unaware that Zimmerman clearly identified 1460 RVC as the location where he first spotted Martin.
Martin should not have been there... I see no other way to put it; TM or any person in the rain traversing a retention pond to access the community seems unreasonable and it would not have shortened his route. IMO The only people using that route as a shortcut are headed toward "Colonial Apartments".
Quote

The Esquire article is a puff piece about Trayvon Martin and his family. It doesn't say much about the case. I don't think it's worth the time to look into the writer's background, but I suspect the assignment was given to 'human interest' writer rather than a crime reporter.

Another passage suggests the writer believed Martin entered and left by 1350/1410 (p. 1).
I too believe that Martin entered by that route, from the sidewalk rather than the streetview as you approach TRATL you have a clear view up RVC you can at one point see the parking lot of the clubhouse clearly and a portion of the clubhouse itself.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2013, 04:22:39 PM »
There is nothing additional added, it is perhaps just localized language but the lattice work attached to the poles are as AFAIK "fan trellises" I know no other name for them.

A fine name it is.

I looked up 'trellis'. It's one of those words that's quite familiar, but when I think about it I realize I don't really know what it means. What unites the structures called 'trellises' with one another, and divides them from other plant-supporting structures? The answer turns out to be lattice work. Trellises come in a great variety of designs, but they all have lattice work.

I couldn't find a definition of 'arbor pole', but I found some pictures, and non of them have lattice work. I think the Esquire writer didn't know the correct term.
 
Quote
I will take a drive by there ASAP to familiarize myself again with the specifics.

Would you take some pictures and post them? If you don't want to bother with posting them yourself, you can send them to me and I will post them on my Flickr page.

I would also like to know if the sidewalk between RATL and Colonial Village has been torn up, as the Esquire article seems to suggest.

Quote
IMO The only people using that route as a shortcut are headed toward "Colonial Apartments".

As I've said before, I think it's used mainly by people whose route includes the part of RVC south of 1460. For such a route, 1460/1510 is the shortest way to go to and from Oregon Ave. west of the complex.

Sierra McLendon, in the interview linked in the first post of this thread, said people used 1460/1510 to get to Oregon Ave. She is the only on-the-record source that I know of, regarding the shortcut.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2013, 05:56:05 PM »
Things Change
That is the only way I can express what i saw on a return vist to RATL:

The shortcuts have been closed permanently. They have erected a wrought iron fence the length of the W/SW property line. Probably the entire complex but that was not my concern on this visit... The sidewalk between "Colonial Village" and RATL is intact and there has been no repair or demolition work.

The Clubhouse has the address displayed on the front of the building, it is visible but very small and hard to read except straight on, the numbers are residential type 3.25" black metal against the beige stucco front.

The pedestrian gate does not appear to require a pass code, I tried to get a picture but was unable next visit I will go directly there on the sidewalk rather than a drive-by.

I have a couple of nice views from the Clubhouse parking lot, if GZ parked in the second spot he could see virtually nothing but the roof of the mail station... but if he parked between the spaces, first and second the view is more than 3/4 of the kiosk. ( the spaces are not marked/ striped for parking, but the two signs do signify the appropriate space)

Pictures I mention can be seen *here*  h/t NM_NM for hosting these.

Interesting notes:
  • The NE end of the sidewalk cut-through has a fire hydrant and a underground utility stand, this is sheet metal appx 30" high/tall 9" square. This could have easily been a source for tapping sounds heard in the NEN call. I was unable to get a picture there on this visit but will try again later...
  • TTL between RVC and the cut-through on the N side of the street there is no signage except the one at the cut-through visible in many pictures available already... GZ says he parked "there by the sign"... there is only one.
  • I went to Sams/7-11 there is a camera pod at the SE corner of the Sam's bldg one camera is trained upon the 7-11 rear parking area and the corner of that building, there is signage "camera's in use".
  • I thought more about his (TM) walk home and took 2 pictures, one is the view from the edge of the parking lot at Sam's/ 7-11 looking eastward and past "Lakes Edge", the second is from the driveway to "Colonial Village" there is a cut through there well traveled by foot and used as a commuter parking lot during the day... surely this was his likely path.
    I now believe he did use the cut-through beside 1460 and he got there by walking through "Colonial Village" it is a pretty easy route and could shorten his distance on foot IMO. I took photos from the parking lot looking toward FT home.
    Each of the Apt buildings at CV have an enclosed and covered breezeway/stairway any one of them could have served as a resting place... he would pass many if walking this route.
    The mailboxes in CV are W of the entrance road and not easy to find, they provide little cover from the rain (they are drive ups, cars circle the mail station) for this reason I do not think he spent any time there. There are no other "shed" structures in that community the roofs we see in aerial views are garages and locked tight.
    I was unable to gain access into "Lakes Edge".
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 06:06:58 PM by AghastInFL »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2013, 06:30:15 PM »
Thanks for the field work AIF.  Some of us have wondered on another thread how to make sense of the directions Zimmerman gave the police on his 2/2 NEN call.
Quote
If you have an officer available, I'd probably have him stop on Reinhart across the street from Walter Reed's Bentley and go around the back".
 
He was directing them to try to catch an intruder who was hanging out around Taafe's house.  I hope you might look inyo out what he had in mind on your next Sanford visit.  TIA.

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2013, 07:11:40 PM »
Thanks for the field work AIF.  Some of us have wondered on another thread how to make sense of the directions Zimmerman gave the police on his 2/2 NEN call. 
He was directing them to try to catch an intruder who was hanging out around Taafe's house.  I hope you might look inyo out what he had in mind on your next Sanford visit.  TIA.
noted.
I do not remember the precise location of any Bentley Dealership... I try to ignore them, they say  Envy is a Sin. ;)
It was a slip of the tongue likely, Walter Reed is a hospital; Reed is however the name of several dealerships locally possibly the Infiniti dealer which is close-by RATL, I doubt they sell Bentley's though. I will look and let you know, NP.

Offline unitron

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2013, 07:51:21 PM »
Does that Colonial Village mail thing have a street address of its own so I can see where it is on a Google map?

'Cause if it was only raining straight down and not slanted because of the wind, it looks like there's enough overhang to shelter under, and if Martin got out of the rain there, and then went through the short cut by Frank's, wouldn't that tie the young lady's account and Zimmerman's together better?

Or does she mention Martin mentioning Zimmerman while he was still hanging by the mailboxes?

(I've been sick all week, and my memory is even worse than usual)

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #57 on: February 01, 2013, 08:13:39 PM »
Does that Colonial Village mail thing have a street address of its own so I can see where it is on a Google map?

'Cause if it was only raining straight down and not slanted because of the wind, it looks like there's enough overhang to shelter under, and if Martin got out of the rain there, and then went through the short cut by Frank's, wouldn't that tie the young lady's account and Zimmerman's together better?

Or does she mention Martin mentioning Zimmerman while he was still hanging by the mailboxes?

(I've been sick all week, and my memory is even worse than usual)
map here
see the end of Millwood Dr @ Bog Wood Ln
« Last Edit: February 01, 2013, 08:17:34 PM by AghastInFL »

Offline unitron

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #58 on: February 01, 2013, 08:31:04 PM »
map here
see the end of Millwood Dr @ Bog Wood Ln

Many thanks, both in general and especially for that.

That puts it about half way between the 7-11 and Frank's short cut, as the crow flies.

If there's a short cut between Plantation Lakes Circle and Twin Wood Trace, then that's the likely "teenagers' TRaTL to 7-11 and back direct route".

Does the halfway point work out with the phone call timing to put Martin under the Colonial Village mail kiosk instead of the one next to 1111 RTC?

That question is for anyone who knows.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: The Shortcut From 7-11 into Twin Lakes
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2013, 12:46:43 AM »
Aghast, thanks so much for doing this site visit and taking the photos -- and for your thoughts on what you observed. And for sharing them here.  You did a great job! (And thanks to NM_NM for publishing the photos.)

 

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