Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 48752 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« on: August 16, 2012, 12:37:42 AM »
There is already a timeline thread of sorts, but its title suggests a narrower focus.

This thread will be for discussing any evidence bearing on timing of events or movements of the principals.

I'm starting it by updating an argument I made on the blog.

When Zimmerman and Singleton worked on the map, I think Zimmerman told Singleton that he saw Martin walk down the middle of Twin Trees Lane, then make a sharp left and disappear around the corner of 3251 Retreat View Circle.

This is inconsistent with the reenactment, in which Zimmerman said he lost sight of Martin because he turned right, around the corner of the clubhouse (2:32-45). Zimmerman's statement to Singleton is more detailed, and so I believe more likely to be accurate.

In the reenactment Zimmerman didn't repeat the explanation he gave Singleton. Maybe he thought it wasn't necessary because it was already in the record, and Singleton understood. It would have been awkward because a truck was blocking the view.

I've traced three of the lines Zimmerman drew, using different colors.

In this transcript I have color-coded what I think Zimmerman was saying about the time he drew each of the lines.

2/26-2, 1:52-2:15
Quote
Singleton: OK. So just draw an arrow where he continues to pass you.

Zimmerman: He continues to pass me through here. And then he goes down here. You want me to [crosstalk]?

Singleton: And then he goes somewhere here where you can’t see him?

Zimmerman: Correct.

Singleton: So, just go to about where he, you think he might have been, to where you lose sight of him.

Zimmerman: He started going here, and then behind these houses.

Singleton: OK. And you could see that from here?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Singleton: OK. And then when he gets behind the houses, you lose sight?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

More Illustrations
« Last Edit: August 16, 2012, 08:23:37 PM by TalkLeft »

Offline unitron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2012, 12:58:14 AM »
So "behind these houses" makes it sound like sneaking around in back yards, but because of the way the houses front on RVC with no other structures to their rear, one can go "behind them" just by walking east down the middle of TTL.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2012, 02:08:08 AM »
So "behind these houses" makes it sound like sneaking around in back yards,

I disagree. In this context, 'behind' just means on the other side from the observer. The expression is used of objects that have no front or back.

Quote
but because of the way the houses front on RVC with no other structures to their rear, one can go "behind them" just by walking east down the middle of TTL.

One can, but Martin didn't according to Zimmerman. The map shows him cutting across the back yards, by making a sharp left before he reached the bend of TTL.

Offline unitron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2012, 03:11:43 AM »
I disagree. In this context, 'behind' just means on the other side from the observer. The expression is used of objects that have no front or back.

One can, but Martin didn't according to Zimmerman. The map shows him cutting across the back yards, by making a sharp left before he reached the bend of TTL.

So by that point he supposedly already knows that Zimmerman is watching him, which you'd think would discourage "casing the joint" if that were what he had been doing, but he chooses to walk through the wet grass instead of on the street.

I wonder how prone those streets are to flooding.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2012, 03:32:30 AM »
If Martin 'sneaking around in back yards' is of no significance, why did you bring it up?

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2012, 08:25:43 AM »
Following TM's steps according to information not coming from TM's "side".  There are clubhouse videos that show lights passing at various times, but I'm not sure anything can be definitively established as being GZ's path and timing of actions from those videos.

6 sumpin - TM leaves his home to go to the store to pick up tea and skittles for Chad.

6:20ish - TM enters the store

6:24ish - TM exits the 711 store after buying watermelon drink and Skittles (He is on the phone with Dee Dee while in the store)

6:29ish - he walks past the front window of the 711 and is headed in the direction of RTL.

6:3? - Chad calls TM who tells him he is on his way back from the store

6:53ish - TM runs into RTL to get under shelter because it was about to rain and/or started raining.  Dee Dee loses connection.

6:54ish -  She re-establishes a phone connection with TM and he has set up camp under the mail thing.
 
7:09ish -  Timing here is vague because Dee Dee says it was a few minutes later that TM says he notices a man watching him.  I am going to guess that this correlates to about the time GZ started his NEN call.  Dee Dee does not mention TM moving from the mail shelter before this, so the assumption is this has been TM's position for the last 15 minutes and where he notices GZ watching him.  TM tells her he sees this man sitting in his car watching him.  IF TM is still under the mail shade, GZ would be on TTL.

7:11ish - TM starts walking from under the mail thing.  She says right after he starts walking, the phone hangs up.  She re-establishes a phone connection at 7:12.

7:12ish - TM has passed GZ's car and GZ was following behind him.  TM put his hoodie up because it started drippin a little bit again. 

7:13ish - We don't know that a minute passed before the next action, but Dee Dee does have him walking for a little bit.  TM then tells Dee Dee he his about to run from the back.  He runs, loses GZ and is by his fathers house.  TM is "out of breath, excited and scared".

7:14ish - TM started walking back.  ITs up for debate whether she literally meant walking back from the direction he just ran, or back to a walking pace because she tells him to keep running.  I'd suggest the former because he states he doesn't need to run because he's right by his house.  IF he's at his house and starts walking and ends up at the 'T', then it seems he was walking back to where he came from.

7:16ish - Dee Dee says a couple of minutes later GZ is following him again.  Dee Dee urges him to run, he says he's not going to, she guesses he's too tired to run because he's talking low, whispering.  GZ is getting close, TM and GZ are involved in a verbal exchange and it turns physical.

7:17 and later - Dee Dee tries to call TM back a couple of times but no answer.  She doesn't try to contact anyone else.  Chad doesn't contact anyone about TM not coming home until 10:30ish.


Offline unitron

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1060
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2012, 06:09:30 PM »
If we give "right by" as much flexibility as "near",  then just being inside the neighborhood and within a few hundred feet of the house could be "right by" compared to being at the 7-11.

We're going on our interpretation of her interpretation of what he actually said.

Yeah, no room for confusion there.

Offline DebFrmHell

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 954
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2012, 06:13:24 PM »
If we give "right by" as much flexibility as "near",  then just being inside the neighborhood and within a few hundred feet of the house could be "right by" compared to being at the 7-11.

We're going on our interpretation of her interpretation of what he actually said.

Yeah, no room for confusion there.
Jeebus Crispy!  Give it a rest with the freaking "near"  Honest to Pete...  start a language thread or something.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5449
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2012, 03:25:54 AM »
Following TM's steps according to information not coming from TM's "side".

Good work.

I would quarrel with Dee Dee not being on Martin's side.
 
Quote
TM started walking back.
 
You left out the word 'again'. What do you make of that word?

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2012, 07:39:41 AM »
If we give "right by" as much flexibility as "near",  then just being inside the neighborhood and within a few hundred feet of the house could be "right by" compared to being at the 7-11.

We're going on our interpretation of her interpretation of what he actually said.

Yeah, no room for confusion there.

Well, I'd suggest we a little more information in this situation.
1.  Dee Dee tells him to run to his dad's house and TM tells her he's about to "run from the back".  TM doesn't explicitly say where he's going to run or that he agreed to run to his dad's house, but he doesn't say thats not where he's headed.  Matched with GZ's description of the direction TM disappeared, it would indicate he was moving in the direction of his dad's house.
2.  Dee Dee describes him running long enough to be out of breath, though doesn't give an estimate for how long he was running.  I'm guessing you'd have to run full sprint for at least 15-20 seconds to be as out of breath as she describes.  A decent athlete even in street clothes would cover at least 300-400 feet in that time.  IF TM is somewhere between GZ's parked car on TTL and the 'T', that would put him somewhere between 250-350 feet from his dad's house before he ran. 
3.  Dee Dee tells TM to keep running after he had stopped, but said he didn't need to because he was right by his fathers house.  TM was scared according to Dee Dee, but felt safe enough in being right by his fathers house to not run or go inside.
4.  He lost GZ.  GZ had gotten out of his car and headed toward the T.  TM was far enough away from the 'T' that he said he lost the man who was somewhere around the 'T'.

We have a lot more detailed information than just a statement that he's "right by" a certain location.  I can't think of another location TM would have been given the totality of the information.

AS for Dee Dee's statement, "he started walking back again".  She's confusing enough and the statement is vague enough to be open to interpretation.   BDLR also doesn't help the situation by giving her a statement to agree with instead of asking what she meant by it.  I think it was asked what I make of the word "again".  I think in context it could mean just walking again, or it could mean headed to the 'T' again.  I think most people describing someone who is simply changing the pace of their movement would have said, "started walking again" or "went back to walking".  She doesn't have a very good command of the English language, so that could explain the redundant use of both "back" and "again" together, or it could be (and more likely I think) that the word "back" was added to describe a direction.   I think given the other evidence that TM ran/skipped away from the 'T', was out of breath enough to be a significant distance away, was right by his fathers house and then ended up back at the 'T' where the face to face confrontation occurs, I think its pretty clear he did walk back to that area again.  BDLR didn't bother asking Dee Dee how he ended up there, but Dee Dee describes TM by his dad's house, then walking somewhere else while keeping his voice low.

Offline JoeMenardo

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 42
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2012, 08:36:21 AM »
Well, I'd suggest we a little more information in this situation.
1.  Dee Dee tells him to run to his dad's house and TM tells her he's about to "run from the back".  TM doesn't explicitly say where he's going to run or that he agreed to run to his dad's house, but he doesn't say thats not where he's headed.  Matched with GZ's description of the direction TM disappeared, it would indicate he was moving in the direction of his dad's house.
2.  Dee Dee describes him running long enough to be out of breath, though doesn't give an estimate for how long he was running.  I'm guessing you'd have to run full sprint for at least 15-20 seconds to be as out of breath as she describes.  A decent athlete even in street clothes would cover at least 300-400 feet in that time.  IF TM is somewhere between GZ's parked car on TTL and the 'T', that would put him somewhere between 250-350 feet from his dad's house before he ran. 
3.  Dee Dee tells TM to keep running after he had stopped, but said he didn't need to because he was right by his fathers house.  TM was scared according to Dee Dee, but felt safe enough in being right by his fathers house to not run or go inside.
4.  He lost GZ.  GZ had gotten out of his car and headed toward the T.  TM was far enough away from the 'T' that he said he lost the man who was somewhere around the 'T'.

We have a lot more detailed information than just a statement that he's "right by" a certain location.  I can't think of another location TM would have been given the totality of the information.

AS for Dee Dee's statement, "he started walking back again".  She's confusing enough and the statement is vague enough to be open to interpretation.   BDLR also doesn't help the situation by giving her a statement to agree with instead of asking what she meant by it.  I think it was asked what I make of the word "again".  I think in context it could mean just walking again, or it could mean headed to the 'T' again.  I think most people describing someone who is simply changing the pace of their movement would have said, "started walking again" or "went back to walking".  She doesn't have a very good command of the English language, so that could explain the redundant use of both "back" and "again" together, or it could be (and more likely I think) that the word "back" was added to describe a direction.   I think given the other evidence that TM ran/skipped away from the 'T', was out of breath enough to be a significant distance away, was right by his fathers house and then ended up back at the 'T' where the face to face confrontation occurs, I think its pretty clear he did walk back to that area again.  BDLR didn't bother asking Dee Dee how he ended up there, but Dee Dee describes TM by his dad's house, then walking somewhere else while keeping his voice low.

Or, we can use the easier explanation that she meant to convey that he started walking again, which fits into her narrative.  i.e.  I told him to run but he wouldn't. 

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2012, 09:01:12 AM »
Except that she uses the word "back" which in its context, most people would imply that is in regards to a direction, since she also uses the word "again" which denotes a "repeated action".  Its entirely possible she is being redundant and both words were used to describe repeating an earlier action. 

As for her telling him to run, where would he run to if, as Dee Dee tells it, TM had already lost GZ and was by his fathers house?  She says he walks for a couple of minutes.  He could have walked from the 'T' to his dad's house in less than a couple of minutes, so whats the simplest explanation as to why he walks a couple of minutes and ends back at the 'T' face to face with GZ?

Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2012, 09:09:12 AM »
She use "back" to mean resume. Where does she say TM walked for minutes after he initially ran?
To me her account seems to support the theory that TM ran around the corner, ducked into a yard
and hid. GZ says TM popped up out of the bushes.  Bill Lee's theory was that TM was just staring to head back to the Greens' when Z reappeared at the T so TM turned around to confront Z. Dee Dee's acct was similar.

Offline leftwig

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 532
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2012, 11:53:56 AM »
If she used "back" to mean resume, then what did she use "again" for?

We have a very different reading of Dee Dee's account. 
- She says after TM stops running, he's right by his house (misinterpreted as "ass" by BDLR)
- TM says he lost him
- She says he "started walking back again"
- She tells him to run, but he says he isn't going to because he's by his fathers house
- Its after this where she says "a couple of minutes later" the man was following him again.   

She says he ran long enough to be out of breath and was still out of breath minutes later and was no longer able to run.  I don't think running 50 feet and ducking around the corner would result in what she describes.   He notices GZ watching him while at the mail area and walks from there on the same path he would have traveled with or without GZ being present.  Why would he calmly walk a couple of hundred feet and check out what GZ was up to, then duck around the corner, stop and hide?  He had a big lead on GZ who was still sitting in his car.   If TM were afraid, he'd want to get as far away as possible, so why stop right by where GZ last saw him and allow him to catch up?  The only way that would make sense to me would be if he were setting up for an ambush.  IT doesn't fit with Dee Dee's description because she says after he ran long enough to be out of breath, then he started walking after realizing he had lost GZ and getting by his fathers house.   IT was a couple of minutes later, after he "started walking back again" that he says GZ is following him.



Offline IgnatiusJDonnelly

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 353
  • Rate Post +0/-0
Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2012, 12:13:02 PM »
She also says GZ has a deep voice. ;)


Dee Dee's use of idioms might be unfamiliar to some but
it's not like she invented it.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20120518092601AAkdL34
She speaks in a regional dialect. So do I.
Double negatives are perfectly correct in other languages. Many English speakers use them all the time.

 

Site Meter
click
tracking