Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 48754 times)

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2013, 07:41:12 AM »
Maybe I was too harsh on the bcclist video.  There might be some value in the first part which I will watch again.  IIRC, they make the claim that Zimmerman never parked in the space in the front of the clubhouse, as he said he did in the reenactment.  They suggest he drove back and forth in front of the clubhouse.   To be in sync with the way I interpret the NEN call, Zimmerman's car trip to the cut through should be at about 7:11 PM and last maybe 10 to 15 seconds.  I think they had it start earlier and last longer with the close encounter between Martin and the Ridgeline happening during that journey.

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2013, 01:07:03 PM »
Hey, what are you asking me for? I just found out you were almost in the credits.

Thanks for the heads up.  I haven't actually posted in that particular thread yet (though now I guess I have to), so I wasn't getting emails about it the way I was about the previous one of which this was a continuation.

Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2013, 04:07:16 PM »
Some BccList contributors have a new video on YouTube. It's 47 minutes. From a first viewing, I would say it is a valuable contribution to the discussion.

I disagree. It's by a biased source. It is filled with assumptions and personal observations rather than fact, and bases its conclusions on suppositions.  I didn't watch the whole thing but the little I saw claims George didn't pull in front of the clubhouse,  based on the author's subjective interpretation of the clubhouse videos.

I'll ask again  that you not bring material from biased internet speculators here.


Offline TalkLeft

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2013, 04:24:15 PM »
On Chad's phone call. I think it's the 7:04 call because you can make out the 407 area code in the photo displayed by ABC News.

Here's another view of the shortcut by Taafe's house. I believe this is the shortcut Trayvon would have used, and that's why when George first saw him, he was standing in the grass in the front portion of Taafe's -- he had entered through the shortcut. The photo also shows the other shortcut.




The first shortcut is  here.

See also here and here .


Added: This also shows the two shortcuts.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 03:47:41 AM by TalkLeft »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2013, 07:14:14 PM »
Maybe I was too harsh on the bcclist video.  There might be some value in the first part which I will watch again. 
No, I was right the first time.  Their basic assumption is that it all started when Zimmerman, driving east past the clubhouse on RVC, saw Martin in the mail kiosk and eventually turned into TTL past Martin in the kiosk.  I doubt Zimmerman, from the driver's side of his car on RVC, would have even noticed Martin in the kiosk and concluded he was suspicious.  Their claim that video evidence shows that Zimmerman was not in the clubhouse parking lot at 7:09:34 when the NEN call started needs much more documentation before I would accept it. 

The narrator said that the cameras only took one frame a second.  I would like to know the shutter speed these cameras were set at and how they were synched with each other.  The entire premise of using them to determine what traffic passed by the clubhouse may be faulty.  We can discuss these issues without referring to the video again.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2013, 08:21:44 PM »
From the other direction here.

Uh, Jeralyn, you do realize that is 1350/1410?

Part of the back of the 1400 building is visible, including the sliding doors of 1410, 1420, and 1430, and the fence between 1430 and 1440. The back door of 1440 is obscured by a tree, and the last two units are also behind the tree or out of the frame. In short, not a bit of 1460 is visible, much less the gap between 1460 and 1510.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #111 on: January 29, 2013, 09:01:34 PM »
To be in sync with the way I interpret the NEN call, Zimmerman's car trip to the cut through should be at about 7:11 PM and last maybe 10 to 15 seconds.

Sgt. Smith took 41 seconds in the reenactment (2:55-3:36). He was backing out of the clubhouse for the first 7 seconds. After 15 seconds he was just starting to turn onto TTL.

If Zimmerman parked at the clubhouse, I think he would have to be backing out within a few seconds after the NEN call began recording. He would need to round the bend on TTL by about 7:10:15, to get Martin in his headlights and say 'He's here now, and he's just staring.'

I don't see any reason Zimmerman couldn't have been parked on TTL before the NEN call began recording.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2013, 09:22:43 PM »
I don't see any reason Zimmerman couldn't have been parked on TTL before the NEN call began recording.
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.
Quote
0:04:38 - Hey, we’ve had some break-ins in my neighborhood and there’s a real suspicious guy. Uh, it’s
Retreat View Circle. Um, the best address I can give you is one-eleven Retreat View Circle.
He still seems to be there a minute into the call.
Quote
0:55:82 - He's near the clubhouse right now?
0:58:01- Yeah, now he's coming towards me [possible door lock].
But after a minute and a half you hear noises suggesting car movement, a complaint about assholes always getting away (implying he was not just going to let this asshole get away by sitting in the clubhouse parking lot) and 10 seconds later he does try to give directions to the where the car (presumably) was parked on TTL.
Quote
1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear
shift and four footsteps/fade].
1:45:65 - When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left. Actually you'd – would
go past the clubhouse— [he's trying to explain his location on Twin Trees, southeast of the clubhouse,
not at the clubhouse itself].
« Last Edit: January 29, 2013, 09:29:36 PM by RickyJim »

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2013, 10:15:45 PM »
What's the point of having a gated community where you can walk into half of the back yards right off the main drag?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #114 on: January 30, 2013, 04:22:02 AM »
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.

Nonsense. Zimmerman didn't say a word about his own location.

Look at Zimmerman's earlier suspicious person calls.

Logs

8/3/11 P. 39. One burglary suspect. 

8/6/11 P. 40. Two burglary suspects.

10/1/11 P. 42. Two men loitering in a car.

2/2/12 P. 45. Suspicious man at 1460 RVC.

Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address for all of these calls except the last one. (The Event Report for the first one, 8/3/11, has 1110, but that wasn't Zimmerman's error. On the audio you can hear him give the correct address.)

The 8/3/11 call was the first suspicious person call Zimmerman made after he and Shellie moved into RATL. Zimmerman explained why he used the clubhouse address.

Quote
Dispatcher: OK. And what's your address out there?

Zimmerman: I'd rather not give out my address, because he's obviously in the neighborhood. But it's Retreat View Circle. You can use one one one one, which is the clubhouse.

In later calls Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address without the explanation.

The address was the first question the dispatcher asked on the first three calls. On the fourth call, 2/2/12, Zimmerman volunteered the address the first time he spoke, as he did on 2/26.

The 2/2 call is the incident Zimmerman mentioned in his SPD interviews as contributing to his suspicion of Martin, because he saw Martin in front of the same house. On that call he decided to give the address of the residence he was concerned about.

Why didn't Zimmerman give 1460 RVC as the incident location on 2/26? I can think of two reasons.

One would be that Zimmerman made up the story of sighting Martin in front of that house.

On the NEN call, Zimmerman never said anything about a house that was sensitive because of a previous incident. He didn't mention houses at all when he first explained to the dispatcher what had aroused his suspicions. This was the entire indictment:

Quote
It's raining, and he's just walking around, looking about.

No one need remind me that Zimmerman also said Martin looked like he was 'on drugs'. Zimmerman explained that in his last SPD interview. It was an inference from the 'looking about', not a distinct observation (2/29-3, 1:32-41).

In the story of first sighting Martin at 1460 RVC, Zimmerman seems to have gotten a good look at him. As he drove past, he fortuitiously had to slow down for a vehicle backing out (2/29-1, 8:22-25). And Martin looked at him (2/26-1, 4:10-26; 2/27R, 0:51-1:01; 2/27V, 25:36-26:02, 6:44:13-39, 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18).

Martin would have been standing under a streetlight.

On the NEN recording, to me it sounds for all the world as if Zimmerman got his first close look at Martin during the call.

If Zimmerman told the truth about the first sighting at 1460 RVC, the only reason I can see for him not giving that address to the dispatcher would be if he knew Martin wasn't there anymore. (That wouldn't explain why he didn't mention the sensitive house at all.)

This would be consistent with Zimmerman's statements, but not with the popular hypothesis that Martin was coming from 1460 RVC when Zimmerman said 'Now he's coming towards me'.

Audio of SPD interviews.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #115 on: January 30, 2013, 04:42:00 AM »
I think it is clear he was on RVC at the clubhouse at the start.

He still seems to be there a minute into the call.

But after a minute and a half you hear noises suggesting car movement, a complaint about assholes always getting away (implying he was not just going to let this asshole get away by sitting in the clubhouse parking lot) and 10 seconds later he does try to give directions to the where the car (presumably) was parked on TTL.

Your interpretation of a recording doesn't change the laws of physics.

Backing out of the clubhouse, turning right on TTL, and following TTL around the next bend, is not a 15 second drive.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #116 on: January 30, 2013, 05:04:42 AM »
I'll ask again  that you not bring material from biased internet speculators here.

I would have to stop posting here myself.

If you do not want that link on your site, please delete it.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #117 on: January 30, 2013, 06:13:49 AM »
It's by a biased source.

Of the blogs that follow the Zimmerman case, which are the unbiased ones? Point them out to me, please.

I recall someone, not so long ago, claiming that you were biased. Who could that have been? Who would be so imperinent? I shall rack my brain.

I am not neutral or unbiased.  I view all cases  through the lens of the defense.  I strive for factual and legal accuracy, but I am not unbiased in how I view the facts and interpret the law.

I didn't watch the whole thing but the little I saw claims George didn't pull in front of the clubhouse,  based on the author's subjective interpretation of the clubhouse videos.

I agree. The video presents subjective interpretations of the clubhouse videos, much like certain subjective interpretations of the non-vocal noises on the NEN recording, 'published with permission by TalkLeft.com'.

Quite a lot of speculation on this forum has been based on subjective interpretation of those noises.

Of the two, the videos seem more promising to me. I don't know if there is one of those noises that hasn't been interpreted at least two ways, and in any case I don't feel qualified to have an opinion myself. On the videos, I have no doubt that the moving lights, or most of them, are the lights of passing vehicles.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #118 on: January 30, 2013, 07:39:08 AM »
Nonsense. Zimmerman didn't say a word about his own location.

Look at Zimmerman's earlier suspicious person calls.

Logs

8/3/11 P. 39. One burglary suspect. 

8/6/11 P. 40. Two burglary suspects.

10/1/11 P. 42. Two men loitering in a car.

2/2/12 P. 45. Suspicious man at 1460 RVC.

Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address for all of these calls except the last one. (The Event Report for the first one, 8/3/11, has 1110, but that wasn't Zimmerman's error. On the audio you can hear him give the correct address.)

The 8/3/11 call was the first suspicious person call Zimmerman made after he and Shellie moved into RATL. Zimmerman explained why he used the clubhouse address.

In later calls Zimmerman gave the clubhouse address without the explanation.

The address was the first question the dispatcher asked on the first three calls. On the fourth call, 2/2/12, Zimmerman volunteered the address the first time he spoke, as he did on 2/26.

The 2/2 call is the incident Zimmerman mentioned in his SPD interviews as contributing to his suspicion of Martin, because he saw Martin in front of the same house. On that call he decided to give the address of the residence he was concerned about.

Why didn't Zimmerman give 1460 RVC as the incident location on 2/26? I can think of two reasons.

One would be that Zimmerman made up the story of sighting Martin in front of that house.

On the NEN call, Zimmerman never said anything about a house that was sensitive because of a previous incident. He didn't mention houses at all when he first explained to the dispatcher what had aroused his suspicions. This was the entire indictment:

No one need remind me that Zimmerman also said Martin looked like he was 'on drugs'. Zimmerman explained that in his last SPD interview. It was an inference from the 'looking about', not a distinct observation (2/29-3, 1:32-41).

In the story of first sighting Martin at 1460 RVC, Zimmerman seems to have gotten a good look at him. As he drove past, he fortuitiously had to slow down for a vehicle backing out (2/29-1, 8:22-25). And Martin looked at him (2/26-1, 4:10-26; 2/27R, 0:51-1:01; 2/27V, 25:36-26:02, 6:44:13-39, 2/29-1, 8:03-53; 2/29-3, 0:51-1:18).

Martin would have been standing under a streetlight.

On the NEN recording, to me it sounds for all the world as if Zimmerman got his first close look at Martin during the call.

If Zimmerman told the truth about the first sighting at 1460 RVC, the only reason I can see for him not giving that address to the dispatcher would be if he knew Martin wasn't there anymore. (That wouldn't explain why he didn't mention the sensitive house at all.)

This would be consistent with Zimmerman's statements, but not with the popular hypothesis that Martin was coming from 1460 RVC when Zimmerman said 'Now he's coming towards me'.

Audio of SPD interviews.

Thanks for this information.  I had always believed that from the information given by GZ on the NEN that he wasn't parked at the clubhouse when the call started.  I had always assumed this meant that he had already pulled out of the clubhouse.  From what you show here, giving out the clubhouse address doesn't really tell us much about his exact location.  IT could be he hadn't gotten there yet.  It could be that he was there.  It could be that he had already left there. 

As for the video provided, I think they are interesting, but inconclusive.  The vehicle captured from the clubhouse camera facing RVC doesn't appear to be a Ridgeline to me.  There is no window where their should be a window, there doesn't appear to be enough body between the top of the back tire and the bed and the back wheel well appears rounded, but on the Ridgeline it is square.  The lights and when they appear on various videos is interesting, but we can't tell whether they came from one vehicle, multiple vehicles or if any of the vehicles are GZ's. 

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #119 on: January 30, 2013, 09:00:10 AM »
What's the point of having a gated community where you can walk into half of the back yards right off the main drag?
My impression is that before the housing bubble burst, TRTL was an expensive place which was well maintained.  Can anybody confirm or refute?

 

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