Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 52596 times)

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Offline amateur

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #45 on: August 21, 2012, 08:19:15 PM »
For some reason, I always thought she was talking about him sheltering in the apartment complex next to RTL and not the mailbox shelter next to the clubhouse.  I'll have to listen to her statement again to find exactly why I had that impression, but I think it might have been the timeline of the phone calls that made me think that part happened before he entered RTL.  He could have sheltered in the apartment complex near the cut through.

I don't think there's enough time for him to pass GZ at the clubhouse, shelter at the mailboxes, walk to the cut through and then come back out and circle the truck during the time that GZ is observing him on the NEN call.

Offline spectator

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #46 on: August 22, 2012, 01:52:11 AM »
I've done some research on whether Zimmerman would have been able to see Martin walk down the middle of TTL and round the corner of 3251 RVC, as he seems to have told Singleton. I think he could have.

The same research leads me to think Martin could not have walked eastward on TTL from the mail shelter without Zimmerman seeing him.


Your right !

Unless you believe George is mistaken seeing TM walking east on TTL before he left the clubhouse, the "mail thing" has been debunked.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #47 on: August 22, 2012, 07:51:11 AM »
Responding to comment on another thread.

Dee Dee implied to de la Rionda that Martin was caught in the rain outside 'the gated place', and entered the complex already running to the mail shelter (5:33-53).

As an aside, this would make more sense if Martin came in the front entrance. That would also fit better with Crump's version.

Dee Dee told de la Rionda the phone call disconnected about this time, putting it about 15 minutes before the police call began recording (5:54-58).

Zimmerman never said he lost sight of Martin at the mail shelter. When he worked on the map for Singleton, he explained in detail how he lost sight of Martin 'behind these houses'.

I've done some research on whether Zimmerman would have been able to see Martin walk down the middle of TTL and round the corner of 3251 RVC, as he seems to have told Singleton. I think he could have.

The same research leads me to think Martin could not have walked eastward on TTL from the mail shelter without Zimmerman seeing him.

From 'These a*holes' to 'he's running' is about 30 seconds.

The drive from the clubhouse to parking on TTL took 41 seconds in the reenactment (2:55-3:36).

Martin would have to run to cover the 380 feet from the mail shelter to the backyard area in 30 seconds. He's supposed to loiter for 'a couple of minutes', and then Dee Dee said he was 'walking'.

How did Martin have time to double back and circle the truck? How did Zimmerman have time to be circled?

Why didn't Zimmerman say a word about this second approach on the police call? Why is all the drama, the hand in the waistband, part of the first pass in the police call, and part of the second pass in the interviews, whenever there is a second pass? Why hasn't Dee Dee said that Martin doubled back and circled the truck?

I think these are all very valid questions.  I am of the impression that TM was never under the mail shade once Zimmerman spots him and places his NEN call.  I don't know if Dee Dee was mistaken and he took shelter somewhere else, or that maybe TM took shelter there first, then went somewhere that wasn't towards his home.  She has about an 18 minute gap with little to nothing going on while taking shelter from the rain.

I'm of the impression from GZ's multiple accounts and sounds on the NEN, that TM passed GZ the first time while he was sitting in his car at the clubhouse calling NEN which would explain not mentioning the first pass to the dispatcher (it had happened before or just as he began talking to him.  I base this mainly on GZ's statements to the dispatcher saying "the best address I can give you is" and other descriptions of where he is.  If GZ was sitting parked at the clubhouse talking to the dispatcher, I'd expect he would have said so instead of saying its the best address I've got.   I certainly don't discount that some of the things GZ describe either happened in a different order or didn't happen exactly as he describes, but I feel pretty comfortable that GZ wasn't parked at the clubhouse as he was talking to the dispatcher, or at most was there only a few seconds before moving to TTL and that TM had already passed that location. 

I guess another possibility would be that GZ is lying and that he never stopped at the clubhouse to place the call and never spotted TM at the bend by Taffe's house and instead spotted TM standing under the mail shade talking to Dee Dee. 

Offline amateur

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #48 on: August 22, 2012, 09:26:42 AM »
For some reason, I always thought she was talking about him sheltering in the apartment complex next to RTL and not the mailbox shelter next to the clubhouse. 

I had a look at google maps and there is what looks like a mail shelter in the apartment complex next to RTL right off of Oregon Ave that would be very easy to duck under and is very close to the cut through.  I listened to DD's recording with BDLR and she does say he is already in the gated place when he goes under the mail shelter, but she may have just assumed that.  Remember that she's probably never been there and never seen the neighborhood, so if he said he was under a mail shelter she probably assumed it was in his complex.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #49 on: August 22, 2012, 09:36:46 AM »
I had a look at google maps and there is what looks like a mail shelter in the apartment complex next to RTL right off of Oregon Ave that would be very easy to duck under and is very close to the cut through.  I listened to DD's recording with BDLR and she does say he is already in the gated place when he goes under the mail shelter, but she may have just assumed that.  Remember that she's probably never been there and never seen the neighborhood, so if he said he was under a mail shelter she probably assumed it was in his complex.

Since it was over a month before she made any statement to the SAO, I don't give her any leeway as to how she had never been there.  She could have very well gone up to Sanford or even googled the area to see what it was like.  With Crump et al on the news and access to the information she would have had negates that to me.


Offline amateur

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #50 on: August 22, 2012, 11:08:34 AM »
Since it was over a month before she made any statement to the SAO, I don't give her any leeway as to how she had never been there.  She could have very well gone up to Sanford or even googled the area to see what it was like.  With Crump et al on the news and access to the information she would have had negates that to me.

That's all well and good, but I still think it's likely that she made an assumption based on what he was telling her.  It seems unlikely that she would make up the bit about the mail shelter or that it's important enough to have been planted in her testimony.  It doesn't really help either side.  It makes sense that he spent some time sheltering from the rain on the way back and it helps to fill a very big gap in time between the 7-11 video and the NEN call.  It doesn't fit the timeline that he spent any time at the mailboxes in RTL nor does it fit GZ's narration.  So, IMO, it makes more sense if he was not yet at RTL when he stopped by the mailboxes. 

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #51 on: August 22, 2012, 12:04:50 PM »
That's all well and good, but I still think it's likely that she made an assumption based on what he was telling her.  It seems unlikely that she would make up the bit about the mail shelter or that it's important enough to have been planted in her testimony.  It doesn't really help either side.  It makes sense that he spent some time sheltering from the rain on the way back and it helps to fill a very big gap in time between the 7-11 video and the NEN call.  It doesn't fit the timeline that he spent any time at the mailboxes in RTL nor does it fit GZ's narration.  So, IMO, it makes more sense if he was not yet at RTL when he stopped by the mailboxes.

Unless it was an attempt to account for the missing time after the 7-11 with a sanitized version.

Who ducks under shelter during a rainstorm and specifically mentions the type of shelter in their phone conversation. It is probably not  relevant to any other part of the discussion. It seems contrived. So does  does the mention of a  hood being donned.  Unless the events were somehow significant for other reasons who would say , or remember, such mundane, insignificant details?

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #52 on: August 22, 2012, 12:37:08 PM »
Unless it was an attempt to account for the missing time after the 7-11 with a sanitized version.

Who ducks under shelter during a rainstorm and specifically mentions the type of shelter in their phone conversation. It is probably not  relevant to any other part of the discussion. It seems contrived. So does  does the mention of a  hood being donned.  Unless the events were somehow significant for other reasons who would say , or remember, such mundane, insignificant details?

This is from a locked thread.  MJW did a lot of work putting together the call log from Tracy Martin's cell.  I am trying to find the rest because this one is not exactly accurate.  I seem to remember I made a mistake but I don't know if it is corrected on this one...

6:45-6:50 (5 min. - from Martin to DeeDee)
6:46-6:48 (2 min - from Martin to non-T-Mob.)
6:49-6:53 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
6:53-6:54 (1 min. - from Martin to DeeDee?)
6:54-6:55 (1 min. - from Martin to DeeDee?)
6:54-7:12 (18 min. - to Martin from DeeDee)
7:04-7:05 (1 min. - to Martin from non-T-Mob.)
7:08 text from DeeDee
7:12-7:16 (4 min. - to Martin from DeeDee

Should  we start a new thread?

Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #53 on: August 22, 2012, 02:18:05 PM »
Should  we start a new thread?

I'll be happy to start a thread on the call times.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #54 on: August 22, 2012, 02:26:13 PM »
That's all well and good, but I still think it's likely that she made an assumption based on what he was telling her.  It seems unlikely that she would make up the bit about the mail shelter or that it's important enough to have been planted in her testimony.  It doesn't really help either side.  It makes sense that he spent some time sheltering from the rain on the way back and it helps to fill a very big gap in time between the 7-11 video and the NEN call.  It doesn't fit the timeline that he spent any time at the mailboxes in RTL nor does it fit GZ's narration.  So, IMO, it makes more sense if he was not yet at RTL when he stopped by the mailboxes.

I don't discount this theory entirely, but Dee Dee says TM rain into the gated community and took refuge under the mail shed.  She has TM standing around somewhere (presumably under the same mail area since she doesn't detail him moving) when he spots GZ watching him. Its then TM decides to start walking from under the mail area according to her.  Its possible TM goes from a mail area in one community to a mail area in another and Dee Dee just leaves that part out.  Or, it could be that TM left the neighboring apartment mail area and was loitering somewhere else when GZ and TM notice each other as GZ never mentions anything about seeing TM near the mailboxes on TTL.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #55 on: August 22, 2012, 03:48:36 PM »
Since it was over a month before she made any statement to the SAO, I don't give her any leeway as to how she had never been there.  She could have very well gone up to Sanford or even googled the area to see what it was like.  With Crump et al on the news and access to the information she would have had negates that to me.

You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #56 on: August 22, 2012, 04:12:07 PM »
You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

Do we know that Dee Dee was a close friend of TM?
I think the nature of their relationship has yet to be explored.  Certainly texts and social media would help establish the truth. Some of her actions and testimony seem at odds with being a close friend and there seems to be a motive for her to 'play a role' in the Tom Swift, romantic narrative invented by Crump.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #57 on: August 22, 2012, 05:10:45 PM »
You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

And yet you pore over ever syllable--not just word--that GZ has said and discount anyone who says the same about him.

And we really don't know anything about her, as Lousy1 said.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #58 on: August 22, 2012, 07:18:32 PM »
Do we know that Dee Dee was a close friend of TM?

Response on W-8 thread.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #59 on: August 22, 2012, 07:33:57 PM »
You're talking about Dee Dee as if she were a student being graded on an assignment instead of a witness in a case.

If you or I lost a friend in a homicide, we might feel that getting obsessive about the case was the best way to deal with the grief. Many people would do the opposite, and avoid the subject as much as possible.

It's also questionable if it's the right thing for a witness to do. Researching the case might contaminate her recollections more than it clarifies them.

I just don't think she much intended to be a witness, if you listen to Team Crump.  First there was the story of the investigator from Natalie Jackson tracking her down.  From Crump, it was Tracy Martin who called her Sunday (3/18?), he called her on Monday and Tuesday he has the presser.

Then why the delay if he was her friend?  She is so upset that she has to go to the hospital on the day of his memorial (either the viewing on March 2nd or the service/internment on the 3rd) but she still doesn't tell anyone what has happened?  This was her good friend.  She knows the family has been crying out for answers.  Not only is it a statewide story, the nationals have picked it up also.  Still, nothing from Dee Dee.  His father tracked her down from looking at the bill.  (Sorry, I don't believe any investigator found her.)

I can understand her reluctance with LE.  But there was not some friend or some adult she could have trusted enough?   I don't find that plausible.

I also question when Tracy Martin actually contacted her.  On March 5th, he declined to allow access to TM's cell phone as per request from Officer Santiago.  He said he "would contact his lawyer" before releasing that information.  Crump implies that the first contact with Mr. Martin was Sunday the 18th.

Considering that she was under the wings of Crump for over a week before the meeting with de la Rionda, "Student" might very well be a good description of her, IMO.


 

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