Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 53040 times)

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Offline ding7777

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #60 on: August 22, 2012, 08:00:08 PM »

Considering that she was under the wings of Crump for over a week before the meeting with de la Rionda, "Student" might very well be a good description of her, IMO.

When Dee Dee says  You want that too? it does sound like she was coached

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #61 on: August 23, 2012, 04:39:16 AM »
Considering that she was under the wings of Crump for over a week before the meeting with de la Rionda, "Student" might very well be a good description of her, IMO.

 :)

Longer response on W-8 thread.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #62 on: August 23, 2012, 06:54:20 AM »
For some reason, I always thought she was talking about him sheltering in the apartment complex next to RTL and not the mailbox shelter next to the clubhouse.

I think that is consistent with Crump's version, not so much the SAO.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #63 on: August 23, 2012, 08:54:30 AM »
Crump does say TM runs into the "apartment complex" and under the first building he see's to take shelter from the rain.  Now, RTL isn't an apartment complex, but many people in the community rent (including BG) so it does have a bit of an apartment complex feel.  Also, Crump says TM does this at 6:54 and says that "unbeknownst to TM", he's being watched as he is taking shelter.  Crump says TM stands under the apartment building for a while, puts his hoodie up and starts walking again and tells Dee Dee he thinks he's being followed.  I think Crump is just calling RTL an apartment complex, not that TM ran for shelter in the adjacent apartments.

Many of Crumps early statements are incredibly inaccurate now that we look back on them. 

-  Dee Dee and TM were dating and in "puppy love" (not according to Dee Dee or his mother)
- TM weighed 140-150 soaking wet
- TM went to the store to get some snacks when his little step-brother asked for skittles and something to drink (Chad is not TM's step brother as Tracy was never married to Brandy and was still married to Alicia Martin at the time.  Also, what snacks did TM buy for himself?  Looked to me like he went straight for the watermelon drink and Skittles and didn't shop around for any snacks for himself, assuming the Skittles and drink were for Chad).
- TM runs under shelter to avoid the heavy rain at 6:54, but starts walking from shelter around 7:12 (according to the weather reports and witness statements the heaviest rain occurred from 7:00-7:30 and peaked around 7:15)
- TM says GZ is following him, but TM slows down so he can look into the car (I'm having trouble visualizing how TM is being followed by someone in a car, but slows down so he can look inside the car.  Could be that they noticed each other, GZ drives past and watches while placing a call, then TM is passing him and slows down his walking pace to check out GZ).
- GZ pursues TM because you can hear GZ breathing hard (I don't hear GZ breathing hard at any point during the NEN and after GZ responds "OK" to the dispatchers statement that he doesn't need to follow TM, it sounds like he just standing around the next couple of minutes.)
- Police instructed GZ to something other than what GZ did, like get back in his truck or meet by the mailboxes (Obviously police never instructed GZ to do anything).
- Dee Dee tells TM to run, so he runs once and thinks he lost GZ.  GZ is now in sight again, following TM and she tells him to run, but TM says he's not going to run, just going to walk fast (he ran once, why is he not going to run again and just "walk fast")
- After TM asks why he's being followed Dee Dee hears the "other boy" say "what are you doing around here" (Other "Boy"?  I thought Dee Dee said the other person had a deep, old man voice?)
- Dee Dee says she can hear a bump, the ear piece fall out and faint noises, but no other specifics until the phone cuts out (She now hears a little bit of "get off" from TM)
- George gets off the phone with the dispatcher (The dispatcher is the one that wraps up the conversation with George and I think George would have liked to have stayed on the phone.  This however doesn't fit the Crump narrative that GZ had to get off the phone to begin pursuit of TM).
- The stuff about TM being high is preposterous (We don't know for certain TM's physical state, but we know he's been busted for pot and had THC in his blood stream.  We still don't have the full tox report available, so we don't know if TM was high or not, but it doesn't seem preposterous to think he may have been).
- All of TM's teachers have given information about what kind of good kid TM was (I recall reading something from a man who coached him 5 years earlier, but not anything from current teachers).
- Says there are three witnesses who claim to know it was TM screaming for help (I know there are a couple who think it was a young boy yelling/crying, none that identified TM as the source to police).
- GZ killed TM in cold blood (don't really have to say more).


Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #64 on: August 23, 2012, 09:09:32 AM »
In response to the "young boy" yelling for help.  I think that is a direct influence from the media that continued to show, and still continues to this day, pictures of Martin at age 12 or 13. 




Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #65 on: August 23, 2012, 09:10:24 AM »
Also, Crump says TM does this at 6:54

Crump's version has Martin leaving the shelter before he gets Dee Dee's 6:54 call.

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and says that "unbeknownst to TM", he's being watched as he is taking shelter.

Good point. That is inconsistent, unless Zimmerman left RTL and followed Martin back to it.

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Many of Crumps early statements are incredibly inaccurate now that we look back on them. 

Many of them have looked inaccurate for a long time. Some looked inaccurate as soon as they were made. For example, you only had to put together a couple of news reports to see that Martin was shot before the NBA All-Star game began, and so couldn't have been going to the 7-11 at halftime.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #66 on: August 23, 2012, 09:26:20 AM »
Crump's version has Martin leaving the shelter before he gets Dee Dee's 6:54 call.

Good point. That is inconsistent, unless Zimmerman left RTL and followed Martin back to it.

Many of them have looked inaccurate for a long time. Some looked inaccurate as soon as they were made. For example, you only had to put together a couple of news reports to see that Martin was shot before the NBA All-Star game began, and so couldn't have been going to the 7-11 at halftime.

If he took shelter on someone's patio, I can see why it would get changed to a mail shed.  While I can see the innocence of trying to get out of the rain on a patio, I don't think a homeowner would see it the same way.  But in the same thought, if a homeowner had detected him, why wouldn't they be the ones calling 911?   Or at least be a witness?

He could have been anywhere getting out of the rain.  I don't think it was the mail kiosk, however.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #67 on: August 23, 2012, 09:32:07 AM »
He could have been anywhere getting out of the rain.

Or it could have been made up, to counter Zimmerman saying Martin wasn't trying to get out of the rain, and account for Martin's time.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #68 on: August 23, 2012, 09:49:48 AM »
Or it could have been made up, to counter Zimmerman saying Martin wasn't trying to get out of the rain, and account for Martin's time.

Too true.  I think I have a personality defect.  I keep expecting people to tell the truth.

TM finished his purchases at 6:24pm.  It really does make me wonder what he was doing for roughly 45 minutes.  I wouldn't even hazzard a guess but why would Crump be so threatened that he would have to make up something.  He zealously guards the image of TM.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #69 on: September 28, 2012, 11:10:46 PM »
I've posted two pictures illustrating possible partial timelines. I will add more in the future.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2012, 06:52:44 AM »
I've posted two pictures illustrating possible partial timelines. I will add more in the future.

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The timeline is based on Zimmerman's statements to Sanford police investigators, ignoring most of the issues raised by Zimmerman's police call. With that caveat, I think this is the most plausible timeline.

BBM
I don't understand how you can ignore most of the NEN since that was happening in real time.

I do want to thank you for the illustrations.  You put a lot of work into those and it is appreciated.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2012, 08:44:00 AM »
I've posted two pictures illustrating possible partial timelines. I will add more in the future.

Where are the timelines?  Sorry but I only see pictures.  I assumed you meant you had two columns, one for EST and the other what was going on.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2012, 09:05:24 AM »
Sorry but I only see pictures.

There is text for each picture. Click one of the thumbnails, or right click and choose one of the 'open' options.

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I assumed you meant you had two columns, one for EST and the other what was going on.

No. As I said, they are partial timelines. Both start from the moment Zimmerman put the truck in reverse to back out of the clubhouse parking lot. I didn't try to estimate EST.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #73 on: October 19, 2012, 10:03:04 AM »
I do want to thank you for the illustrations.  You put a lot of work into those and it is appreciated.

Thanks, but it was mostly fun. I'm learning to use an image editor, and I'm like a kid with a new toy. If not for the Zimmerman case, I would be doing similar projects on some other subject.

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I don't understand how you can ignore most of the NEN

I said I ignored 'most of the issues raised by' the call.

2/26-2, 1:59-2:15
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Singleton: And then he goes somewhere here where you can’t see him?

Zimmerman: Correct.

Singleton: So, just go to about where he, you think he might have been, to where you lose sight of him.

Zimmerman: He started going here, and then behind these houses.

Singleton: OK. And you could see that from here?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

Singleton: OK. And then when he gets behind the houses, you lose sight?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

On the police call there is no mention of Zimmerman losing sight of Martin 'behind the houses'. There is no mention of Zimmerman losing sight of Martin at all until after Zimmerman got out of the truck.

Zimmerman claims to have gone in search of Martin, driving from the clubhouse parking lot to a place where he parked on the left side of Twin Trees Lane. I think the best source for this is to watch that part of the reenactment (2:33-3:42).

On the police call Zimmerman never mentioned moving his truck.

2/27R, 3:33-42
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Zimmerman: And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses.

These events are not mentioned on the police call.

Very little that Zimmerman claimed in his SPD statements is reflected in the police call. Were that not so, the recording would be a powerful tool for constructing a timeline. Instead, we cannot even say what part of Zimmerman's narrative falls within its four minutes.

Perhaps the greatest source of disagreement on that question, is that some of Zimmerman's statements claim that Martin approached and passed the truck twice. Only one such episode is evident from the police call.

Martin passed the truck twice in 2/26-2, 2/27R, and 2/27V. Only one passing is mentioned in 2/26-1, 2/26W, and 2/29-3.

The last interview, 2/29-3, differs from all the others. It is only a partial narrative, covering the periods of the police call and W-11's 911 call. There is no mention of the circling of the truck, which is in every one of the other narratives.

In 2/29-3, Zimmerman was parked in front of the clubhouse when Martin approached with his hand in his waistband. To be precise, Zimmerman said 'I think I'm still at the clubhouse, yes.' (3:15-24)

It happened on Twin Trees Lane in 2/26-2, 2/27R, and 2/27V, the three narratives that have two passings of the truck. In all of them the hand in the waistband and the circling of the truck were part of the second passing, on Twin Trees Lane.

In 2/26-1 and 2/26W, the other two narratives in which only one passing of the truck is mentioned, the location is unclear and the hand in the waistband is not mentioned.

Later in 2/29-3, Zimmerman passed on an opportunity to describe a second approach and an associated circling.

2/29-3, 4:46-5:08 
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Call:
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Zimmerman: Yeah. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left.

Serino: What's happening now? Are you guys walking now? Is he walking?

Zimmerman: No, that's, I was parked where I could see him now.

Singleton: So you're definitely not in front of the clubhouse anymore, at this point.

Zimmerman: No. Hmm-mm. No.

Serino: So you're ahead of him?

Zimmerman: No, I was behind him.

To me this seems like the moment for Zimmerman to say something like this: 'I had just parked on Twin Trees Lane, and he was starting to walk towards me. Soon he was circling the truck, and he even put his hand in his waistband again. I was so over that. This time I didn't even tell the dispatcher. I just kept giving him gold-plated directions, which the dimwit somehow couldn't follow.'

Except that I don't really think there is time for this. If the police call recording describes Martin passing the truck at the clubhouse, both Martin and Zimmerman needed to hustle to get to their places, for Martin to start running and for Zimmerman to spring from the truck. In this scenario, the circling of the truck on Twin Trees Lane just has to be dispensed with in my opinion.

I'm not quite done, but I fear this comment is already too long. I will take the subject up again later.

Audio of Zimmerman's SPD interviews here and here.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2012, 10:06:25 AM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #74 on: October 19, 2012, 12:10:33 PM »
Good stuff.  Just a quick personal take, I think the "circling" of the truck occurred while he was parked at the clubhouse but I question exactly what he meant by "circling".  To me it means walking around completely at least once, but others might use it if someone walked from one side, around the front and past the other side.  I also think this happened before the NEN connected.  GZ doesn't seem clear whether he was connected to the dispatcher while parked at the clubhouse or not.  So not to go into too much detail, but here is what I think.

Before starting to talk to the dispatcher:
1) pulled over to park at the clubhouse with TM coming towards him from down the street.
2) as he was waiting for the connection, TM approached his car and passed it.  Not sure what actions TM took exactly, but probably is the time GZ relays the circling happening. 
3) after TM passes his parked car, GZ the connection is made with the dispatcher and TM disappears. 
4) GZ starts the conversation with dispatcher as he pulls out of clubhouse parking and starts describing the situation.  Some things had happened earlier, some are just happening. 
5) moves onto TTL and finds a parking spot as TM appears again.

The only issue I see with this timeline is the dispatcher asking where TM is and if he' at or near the clubhouse now and GZ says he is then is starting walking towards him.  The only way I can make this foot is if GZ sees his position as being near the clubhouse since he's just a few hundred feet away and that TM isn't any closer to the clubhouse than he is (ie, he's not walking from the clubhouse towards him, they are just both near the clubhouse as TM approaches).  If we can make that leap (that GZ wasn't describing TM walking from the clubhouse to his parked location on TTL), then I think we can make the NEN fit most of his testimony if we accept that he didn't begin talking with the dispatcher as he was parked in front of the clubhouse.  I think the NEN provides us with that detail when GZ first begins to talk and says "the best address I can give you is 111 RVC [the clubhouse]".  I think that phrasing indicates he doesn't know the address of where he currently is, but is giving the closest address he knows and I don't think he would have phrased it that way if he were sitting in the clubhouse parking.

 

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