Timelines and Routes, Thread 2

[nomatter_nevermind]

Responding to comment on another thread

In my opinion, the evidence slightly favors Martin entering through the front gate rather than a shortcut.

Are you referring to time constraints?

No. I don't even know what you mean by that. Martin's time isn't constrained between the 7-11 and Zimmerman calling to report him. There is time unaccounted for.

Dee Dee doesn't mention TM coming through the gate. 

Not that we know of. Crump implied that she did in her first statement, but I'm not counting that as evidence.

The record doesn't show that Zimmerman or Dee Dee ever mentioned the shortcut, so in that respect the evidence is even.

The record doesn't show Zimmerman ever saying anything about how Martin entered the complex. He didn't claim to know anything bearing on that. He didn't speculate about it. He just didn't mention it at any time in his SPD interviews.

Dee Dee's  SAO interview, 5:38-53

De la Rionda: It started raining. And did he go somewhere?

Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran to the mail thing.

De la Rionda: Like, I'm sorry, what?

Dee Dee: Like a mail -

De la Rionda: Like a mail -

Dee Dee: shed. Like a shed.

De la Rionda: -like a shed, like a mail area -

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: - like a covered area -

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: - because it was raining?

Dee Dee: Yeah.

De la Rionda: So did he tell you he was already inside, like, the gated place?

Dee Dee: Yeah, he ran in there.

To me this suggests Martin entering through the front gate, more strongly than anything Zimmerman said suggests that he came in near 1460 RVC.

I put some weight on Tracy Martin's opinion. Tracy either didn't know about the shortcut, or didn't think Martin would use it.

Tracy had spent more time at the complex than Martin. If he didn't know about the shortcut, it's likely Martin wouldn't.

It's even more likely that Martin wouldn't have used the 'shortcut' to get from Oregon Ave. to the clubhouse area, even if he did know about it. It isn't really a shortcut for that purpose.

In a couple of comments, I have said that 1460/1510 would have been a longer way around for Martin. That was a misrecollection on my part. I looked at my earlier comments, and I had actually concluded that the difference is too close to call. But it would have meant walking across unpaved, rain-soaked ground, for no perceptible reduction in walking distance.

I think the 'shortcut' is so called because people walking north on the western leg of RVC use it to get to Oregon Ave. before following it westward. That would save a thousand feet or more over going out the front gate. This would explain why the shortcut is 1460/1510, and not 1350/1410.

[unitron]

Tracy would have known the neighborhood, and stuff like shortcuts, from a grownup's perspective of driving.

Trayon would have known it from a kid's perspective of walking and bike riding, and hearing other kids in the neighborhood talk about how to get to the store.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Trayvon would have known it from a kid's perspective of walking and bike riding, and hearing other kids in the neighborhood talk about how to get to the store.

Brandy said that Trayvon 'don't know anybody here.' (Video, 1:12).

Austin and Sierra McLendon lived in the next building, and apparently didn't know Trayvon.

Investigation of the last two days of Martin's life showed him spending time with his cousin, who was not a resident of the neighborhood.

Other than Chad, is there any evidence of Martin speaking to one of the 'kids in the neighborhood'?

Press reports indicate that the shortcut was known to residents generally. I have seen no evidence it was a secret the teenagers were successfully keeping from the adults.

[RickyJim]

Brandy said that Trayvon 'don't know anybody here.' (Video, 1:12).
Other than Chad, is there any evidence of Martin speaking to one of the 'kids in the neighborhood'?

There was (perhaps it is still there) a youtube video of three boys in that development of approximately Chad's age saying they played touch football with Trayvon.  The only thing I can remember about it that two of the boys were brothers.

[Redbrow]

Brandy said that Trayvon 'don't know anybody here.' (Video, 1:12).

Austin and Sierra McLendon lived in the next building, and apparently didn't know Trayvon.

Investigation of the last two days of Martin's life showed him spending time with his cousin, who was not a resident of the neighborhood.

Other than Chad, is there any evidence of Martin speaking to one of the 'kids in the neighborhood'?

Press reports indicate that the shortcut was known to residents generally. I have seen no evidence it was a secret the teenagers were successfully keeping from the adults.

According to the teens in this article, Trayvon visited several times and played football with them. Not only that, they actually looked forward to his visits. It would surprise me if Austin McLendon, Chad Green and these other teens did not know each other, since they are all around the same age and probably went to the same school.

Trayvon Martin lived with his dad, who resides in the Miami area, and had visited his dad's girlfriend at the Retreat several times before. The kids in the neighborhood always looked forward to playing football with him. But to George Zimmerman, he was a stranger.

Just then, three teenage males walked through the unlocked side gate, down the walkway toward Ransburg. T.J. Jones and his twin brother, T.Y., 14, and their cousin James Young, 13, have lived in the complex for two years. Their moms moved here from apartments to give the boys more room and a safe place to play.

The boys, who are black, used to play football with Trayvon Martin "right there on that grass where he died," said T.Y.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/humaninterest/article1221799.ece

[DebFrmHell]

Responding to comment on another thread

Are you referring to time constraints?

No. I don't even know what you mean by that. Martin's time isn't constrained between the 7-11 and Zimmerman calling to report him. There is time unaccounted for.

Not that we know of. Crump implied that she did in her first statement, but I'm not counting that as evidence.

The record doesn't show that Zimmerman or Dee Dee ever mentioned the shortcut, so in that respect the evidence is even.

The record doesn't show Zimmerman ever saying anything about how Martin entered the complex. He didn't claim to know anything bearing on that. He didn't speculate about it. He just didn't mention it at any time in his SPD interviews.

Dee Dee's  SAO interview, 5:38-53
To me this suggests Martin entering through the front gate, more strongly than anything Zimmerman said suggests that he came in near 1460 RVC.

I put some weight on Tracy Martin's opinion. Tracy either didn't know about the shortcut, or didn't think Martin would use it.

Tracy had spent more time at the complex than Martin. If he didn't know about the shortcut, it's likely Martin wouldn't.

It's even more likely that Martin wouldn't have used the 'shortcut' to get from Oregon Ave. to the clubhouse area, even if he did know about it. It isn't really a shortcut for that purpose.

In a couple of comments, I have said that 1460/1510 would have been a longer way around for Martin. That was a misrecollection on my part. I looked at my earlier comments, and I had actually concluded that the difference is too close to call. But it would have meant walking across unpaved, rain-soaked ground, for no perceptible reduction in walking distance.

I think the 'shortcut' is so called because people walking north on the western leg of RVC use it to get to Oregon Ave. before following it westward. That would save a thousand feet or more over going out the front gate. This would explain why the shortcut is 1460/1510, and not 1350/1410.

And I don't believe he went to any mail thing. 

I believe that he most likely took shelter under a porch or a patio, and not necessarily at The Retreat.  I think time wise it is just as likely that he was at Colonial Village.  That community is not gated.  W8 doesn't mention TM entering the gate.  BdlR does.  Zimmerman see him down by Taafe's in the grass and makes no mention of how he got there, gate or otherwise.

I was looking over Google maps at Colonial for the thousandth time and I can see nothing that resembles a formal mail kiosk.  ((Those buildings are also 3 story which is mentioned somewhere, I cannot remember where but it was a sticking point))  I am thinking that the mail boxes are within the space occupied by the stairways and run front to back in each building.

Anyway it is just IMO.  So not a big deal.

[Kyreth]

In regards to the Capehsrt articles...he ignores the fact that there is no record of DNA tests being done on Trayvon's hands....only fingernail scrapings were tested.  Therefore as outside observers we can only guess what was or wasn't on his hands and so for a journalist to continue claiming a lack of DNA on his hands is a problem for George is misleading.

Frances Robles interviewed several DNA experts who all agreed nothing in the DNA results demonstrates proof of murder.

[Kyreth]

And I think that went in the wrong thread.

[cashmere]

Thanks -- Even in the wrong thread, I saw it.  I will check out Robles and the interviews.  Thanks again!

[nomatter_nevermind]

W8 doesn't mention TM entering the gate.  BdlR does. 

I don't think de la Rionda did either. He used the expression 'gated place' to describe the complex. That may be what you are thinking of.

In this picture, you can see the gate and the mail shade. A person going in the gate would see the mail shade before they reached the gate. After they passed through the gate, the mail shade would be directly ahead.

Don't you feel Dee Dee's story sounds more like a person doing that, than like a person coming in a block away, and running that block before they even see the mail shade?

Maybe that feeling is too subjective to call 'evidence'. And Dee Dee did telescope Martin's walk from the 7-11 to the complex. It's likely enough she would telescope his running that block.

In a few days we should have the long awaited clear recording of Dee Dee's  statement to Crump. That may settle the question of whether Dee Dee claims that Martin told her how he entered the complex.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Responding to post on another thread.

And I think he was at Lakes Edge when he took shelter from heavier rains.  It coincides with the bank videos at 6:39 where the windshield wipers were not on intermittent but consistently moving IIRC.

That's 6:36.

You are correct on wiper movement. I just checked.

There was also a vehicle at the ATM at 5:40 with no wiper movement. And in the 7-11 video, there is a car pulling into a parking space with no wiper action. So no rain at all until after Martin left the 7-11, consistent with Dee Dee.

All of this is contingent on the time stamps being correct. Have the time stamps on the 7-11 video ever been confirmed?

I'm looking at some Google Earth street views of the north side of Lakes Edge. They were taken in April of 2011, so almost a year before the shooting.

The entrance to Lakes Edge is about 900 ft. east of the 7-11. An average walking pace is about 300 ft./minute, so Martin might be reaching the entrance around 6:32.

The vehicle gates were open at the time of the photo. They are set well back from Rinehart Rd. The fencing here is well hidden by bushes, but it must bend to follow the entry road as far as the gates. The entry road is flanked by sidewalks on both sides. There must be pedestrian gates hidden by palm trees.

There's a little structure between the lanes of the entry road. It could be a shack for a human guard.

This place is prettier than RATL, and I'll bet more expensive. I wonder how its Neighborhood Watch is doing.

The fence doesn't look very high, maybe chest or shoulder height, and I don't see barbed or razor wire. There's a gap in the fence about 300 ft. east of the entrance, leading to a carport. Martin might be reaching it around 6:33.

After another 80-90 ft. the fence angles away from the road. After another 80 ft. or so there is another gap in the fence, then a 40-50 ft. section of fence. Another 60 ft. on, and there is a perpendicular row of bushes that may be hiding a fence between Lakes Edge and Colonial Village. 

By this point, Martin might have another minute or two before the rain started, more if he was walking faster than I've conjectured. Colonial Village would be as accessible as Lakes Edge.

[DebFrmHell]

Follow Rinehart along side Lakes Edge and you will see there is no fencing.  Just hedges with breaks.  All of the fencing is up at the entrance.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Follow Rinehart along side Lakes Edge and you will see there is no fencing.  Just hedges with breaks.  All of the fencing is up at the entrance.

I think I see fencing.

I could be wrong.

ETA: I think the purpose of the hedges is to conceal the fencing. So, not surprising it's hard to see.

ETA 2: I think you're right. What I identified as a break in the fence, about 300 ft. east of the entrance, is actually where the fence ends altogether.

[MJW]

All of this is contingent on the time stamps being correct. Have the time stamps on the 7-11 video ever been confirmed?

If the time stamps have been confirmed, I haven't heard about it. I doubt the surveillance video from a major retailer like 7-Eleven would be too far off. It's intended to be used as evidence in court, and the correct time is easy to obtain these days. I did compare the time stamps between several different views, and as far as I could tell, they appeared to match.

[DebFrmHell]

If the time stamps have been confirmed, I haven't heard about it. I doubt the surveillance video from a major retailer like 7-Eleven would be too far off. It's intended to be used as evidence in court, and the correct time is easy to obtain these days. I did compare the time stamps between several different views, and as far as I could tell, they appeared to match.

I agree also.  We have "eye-in-the-sky" cameras inside my place of work.  When there have been instances where we have had to lock a portion for later use, the time stamps are correct.  We only have two weeks to go back and lock in the portions that we need to save because it will overwrite with new video.  We capture what we need and send the DVD to home office.