Timelines and Routes, Thread 2

[nomatter_nevermind]

Where does she say TM walked for minutes after he initially ran?

I don't take Dee Dee's 'couple of minutes' literally. It seems to be an expression she uses for an indefinite amount of time. It could have been longer or shorter.

It happens, though, that Zimmerman's police call disconnected almost exactly two minutes after he said Martin was running.

Dee Dee didn't explicitly say that Martin was walking during the 'couple of minutes'. But that is the most natural interpretation of her narrative.

Martin 'started walking', then 'a couple of minutes' passed, then Martin was being followed. Dee Dee didn't say Martin kept walking, but she didn't say he stopped.

[unitron]

I don't have a cite from before April 3 offhand. My recollection is that the blogs were full of speculation about the mail shelter being the place Martin sheltered from the rain.

We were discussing it on the TalkLeft blog in May, just before the first evidence release.

But wasn't all talk around the 'net about the mailbox area after it was known that she mentioned it?

[nomatter_nevermind]

But wasn't all talk around the 'net about the mailbox area after it was known that she mentioned it?

If that's so, then those people knew that Dee Dee mentioned it long before I did.

Wasn't the de la Rionda interview part of the May 17 evidence release?

[leftwig]

This is confusing two different parts of the narrative. Martin's voice being low was before the 'couple of minutes'.

Granted, I used a transitive application to Dee Dee's statements.  She gives two possible reasons for why he started talking low, scared and being out of breath.  A couple of minutes later she's still telling him to run, but she knows he's not going to because he's still out of breath and presumably no less scared than before.  I make the assumption that since he's still of breath and still scared, he's talking in the same manner she described before, which also assumes Dee Dee has any idea what she's talking about.  I really don't think she knows, but I am examining this from her perspective. IF TM is not talking low later under the same circumstances, then her explanation for why he was talking low initially is suspect.

[leftwig]

There's no evidence that Dee Dee knew that.

Dee Dee wouldn't, but we do.

[nomatter_nevermind]

She gives two possible reasons for why he started talking low, scared and being out of breath.

Dee Dee didn't say Martin being out of breath was a reason for his voice getting low.

[leftwig]

She said 'walking back again', not 'walking again, back'. Whatever she meant by 'back', it was also being repeated.

I think she meant 'back home', as in 'back home from the store', as opposed to 'out to the store'.

Why would she mean walking back from the store, if she says TM is already by his fathers house?  I could see this being an explanation if she was describing an event before re-entering the RTL community, but not at the point she makes the statement.

Dee Dee never said anything about the 'T', by any label or description. The only geographical locations she mentioned were 'his dad's house', the store, and the mail shelter. There was no apparent reason for Martin to be going back to the 7-11 or the mail shelter.

Of course she doesn't, but we know the 'T' exists.  I am using other known information to match her timeline.   She does say TM is about to run from the back.  I'd guess this either means from the back of GZs vehicle or she meant to the back of his house.  Since GZ's truck was presumably parked in a direction that would place TM in front of it, I'd guess her account would be consistent with the later.

Dee Dee didn't say he was walking somewhere else. That's your interpretation.

TM was either walking in circles, or he walks to a different location.  I'd assume the later to be more likely.

I think 'walking back again' most likely meant that Martin was walking on the route to 'his dad's house', as he had been before he briefly ran along the same route.

Dee Dee also didn't comment on the volume of Martin's voice during the 'couple of minutes' that he was presumably continuing to walk. His voice being low may have applied only to the moment that he told her he thought he had lost the man following him.

Dee Dee says he was under the mailbox shade when he first notices GZ.  She then says he starts walking and is being followed by GZ.  She doesn't mention TTL because she doesn't know anything about the area, but I again think the logical assumption is TM is walking down TTL and if GZ is following in his car, he'd be behind TM.  If TM is on TTL walking in the direction of his home, he wouldn't be very far from home.  If we try to match up Dee Dee's account with GZ's, then TM is anywhere form 250-350 feet from his home when he takes off running "from the back" and down the dog walk area and when he stops running he's by his fathers house.  How long/far do you think he ran in order to be out of breath to the point where he couldn't run anymore?  To me, it seems most logical he ran to the back of his fathers house, since thats what Dee Dee seems to be most likely saying and he had plenty of time to do so in the timeilne supplied by Dee Dee and GZ.

(Edited by TL to correct coding for quotes. There was an improperly placed "/" in the opening quote which prevented the quotes from showing as such. To quote if you aren't going to use the button, the quoted material should be prefaced with quote in  brackets with no slashmark.   The slashmark preceding quote  is used at the end.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Why would she mean walking back from the store, if she says TM is already by his fathers house? 

I obviously disagree with you on what Dee Dee meant by 'right by'. Do you have anything new on this point? It's already been batted around.

[leftwig]

"He lost him; he was breathin’ hard. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda
change"

She mentions being scared and being out of breath for the reason his voice changes.  Dee Dee isn't full of logic, but she doesn't mention talking low while GZ is watching TM, she doesn't mention him talking low as he passes his car or about to run from the back.   She only mentions talking low after he lost the guy and was breathing hard.  Does it make sense he all of the sudden gets scared after he lost the guy?

Now personally, I believe TM was talking low because he didn't want GZ to hear him, not because he was scared or out of breath, but Dee Dee most definitely using his being out of breath for a reason his voice changes.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Dee Dee most definitely using his being out of breath for a reason his voice changes.

She said both things happened. She didn't say one was the reason for the other.

[unitron]

"He lost him; he was breathin’ hard. An…by the sound his voice…voice kinda
change"

She mentions being scared and being out of breath for the reason his voice changes.  Dee Dee isn't full of logic, but she doesn't mention talking low while GZ is watching TM, she doesn't mention him talking low as he passes his car or about to run from the back.   She only mentions talking low after he lost the guy and was breathing hard.  Does it make sense he all of the sudden gets scared after he lost the guy?

Now personally, I believe TM was talking low because he didn't want GZ to hear him, not because he was scared or out of breath, but Dee Dee most definitely using his being out of breath for a reason his voice changes.

Did Martin want to avoid having Zimmerman hear what he had to say, or just avoid Zimmerman being able to determine his location by hearing him?

It wasn't until Zimmerman got out on foot that either would have been a problem.

[leftwig]

I agree with you, in that I think he was talking low to avoid detection.  Dee Dee however says TM's voice changes (clarified to talking low) in the same sentence that he lost the man and gives reasons of being out of breath and scared for why his voice changed.

I still don't see how "start walking back again" after he was by his father's house results in TM continuing walking to his dad's home, especially since he ends up back at the 'T".  Dee Dee says TM was at the mail area, notices GZ, starts walking, the phone hangs up, then GZ is following TM in the car as he's walking.  Dee Dee deosn't know where TM is walking, but I think its a pretty safe assumption he's walking down TTL and GZ is still in his car.  IF GZ is behind him, then TM is between GZ and the 'T' before he starts running. 

How far is he from home before he starts running? 

How far does he have to run to be completely out of breath and far enough away to have lost GZ who is probably somewhere around the 'T'? 

Is Dee Dee wrong that he ran "from the back" and ended up by his fathers house? 

How would TM be continuing on a path home when he "started walking back again" and end up back at the 'T'?

[nomatter_nevermind]

Is Dee Dee wrong that he ran "from the back" and ended up by his fathers house?

I don't know.

I consider the accuracy and the interpretation of Dee Dee's narrative to be open questions. 

[leftwig]

I don't know.

I consider the accuracy and the interpretation of Dee Dee's narrative to be open questions.

We agree here.  I'd really like to hear her first interview with Crump with better audio quality.   The defenses depo of her could be interesting as well, but she could also stonewall that interview.  Her one with Crump early on would be the most interesting to me.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Responding to comment on another thread.

Trayvon reaches the mailboxes (after which George lost sight of him, prompting his statement to the dispatcher, “these as*sholes, they always get away.”)

Dee Dee implied to de la Rionda that Martin was caught in the rain outside 'the gated place', and entered the complex already running to the mail shelter (5:33-53).

As an aside, this would make more sense if Martin came in the front entrance. That would also fit better with Crump's version.

He runs into the apartment complex and runs to the first building he sees to try to get out of the rain.

Dee Dee told de la Rionda the phone call disconnected about this time, putting it about 15 minutes before the police call began recording (5:54-58).

Zimmerman never said he lost sight of Martin at the mail shelter. When he worked on the map for Singleton, he explained in detail how he lost sight of Martin 'behind these houses'.

I've done some research on whether Zimmerman would have been able to see Martin walk down the middle of TTL and round the corner of 3251 RVC, as he seems to have told Singleton. I think he could have.

The same research leads me to think Martin could not have walked eastward on TTL from the mail shelter without Zimmerman seeing him.

From 'These a*holes' to 'he's running' is about 30 seconds.

The drive from the clubhouse to parking on TTL took 41 seconds in the reenactment (2:55-3:36).

Martin would have to run to cover the 380 feet from the mail shelter to the backyard area in 30 seconds. He's supposed to loiter for 'a couple of minutes', and then Dee Dee said he was 'walking'.

How did Martin have time to double back and circle the truck? How did Zimmerman have time to be circled?

Why didn't Zimmerman say a word about this second approach on the police call? Why is all the drama, the hand in the waistband, part of the first pass in the police call, and part of the second pass in the interviews, whenever there is a second pass? Why hasn't Dee Dee said that Martin doubled back and circled the truck?