Timelines and Routes, Thread 2

[RickyJim]

And no, I'm not related to George at all. Why, are you related to BDLR?

Except that we are both bald, no connection between me and BDLR.  I pegged you as a type 3 poster who takes the extreme position that Zimmerman did his job perfectly that night.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Okay.

I just went back through your posts for 4 days and can't find the original post in question, must have missed it. The only one on point was an edited post.

So, since I can't find the evidence you said what I'm fairly certain you said, I'm forced to concede the point and I apologize for getting it wrong.

Still...edited posts...next time I'll reply with a copy.

This is the post in question. It wasn't edited.

Try as we may, Zimmerman's actions defy explanation.  He didn't want to identify himself to Martin, when the latter was "checking him out" out of "fear" but unlike his behavior on previous incidents, discussed here recently, he followed somebody he thought suspicious into a dark area where he could be ambushed.  Late in the NEN call, when he said he thought Martin might be nearby, he refused to wait on well lit RVC for the cops (even though he later implied that was his reason for going there), but headed back on the dark cut through.  I don't regard these things in the slightest as proving guilt, just severe incompetence and stupidity.

[whonoze]

This was an odd tiff over RJ's wording. It's obvious Rickey and i are hardly BFFs, but I took his meaning and agree. The problem seems to be that RJ wrote "he said he thought Martin might be nearby," rather than "he indicated he thought Martin might be nearby." But, gosh, this is the Web and we're all typing quickly, so it just seems unproductive to get into a snit over something like this. Just MHO.

[nomatter_nevermind]

This was an odd tiff over RJ's wording.

Not odd. It's a certain poster's characteristic behavior toward those who stray from Zimmermanian orthodoxy.

I would say that I am pleased that he has found another target beside myself, if I cared.

[I just told my spell-checker that 'Zimmermanian' is a word. Think it will believe me?]

[Kyreth]

This was an odd tiff over RJ's wording. It's obvious Rickey and i are hardly BFFs, but I took his meaning and agree. The problem seems to be that RJ wrote "he said he thought Martin might be nearby," rather than "he indicated he thought Martin might be nearby." But, gosh, this is the Web and we're all typing quickly, so it just seems unproductive to get into a snit over something like this. Just MHO.

It's not really a tiff.  There's just an implication of expectation that exists in one statement that doesn't exist in what George actually said, so I just added the clarification of what George actually said.

[Kyreth]

And to demonstrate, I see a difference between:

"We might die tonight."

and

"I don't know if we'll die tonight."

[DebFrmHell]

And to demonstrate, I see a difference between:

"We might die tonight."

and

"I don't know if we'll die tonight."

I am lighting votives for all of us...just in case.  8-) 

[nomatter_nevermind]

I am lighting votives for all of us...just in case.  8-)

Thank you kindly.

[Kyreth]

I am lighting votives for all of us...just in case.  8-)

Hehe much appreciated.

That said, I did think of a better example.

If I "don't know" if my house is getting broken into tonight, I'll do the usual... just keep the doors locked, etc.

Someone tells me "I think your house is getting broken into tonight", and I'd be asking someone to keep an eye out, house sit, or something.

[nomatter_nevermind]

About 7:23:33, the dispatcher speaking to W-18 suggested that she 'step away from the window' because watching events was making her too emotional. Shortly after, she indicated she had done so. The next, and last, time she gave what might be a  visual report on something outside, was about 7:26:29: '[Crosstalk] I just heard them say something. Oh, all the cars are outside my house right now, in the front.'

W-18's last visual report on the back yard area was at 7:23:21, 'they're looking at the person'. W-18 had noted the arrival of one more officer after Smith, so this may correspond to the period when Alaya 'attempted to get a response' from Martin by speaking to him, before Sgt. Raimondo arrived (14/184, 2/284).

When Raimondo arrived, he checked for a pulse, and then he and Ayala began CPR. A bystander brought a plastic bag to seal Martin's wound. Sgt. McCoy arrived, got a respirator mask from her car and gave it to Raimondo, and relieved Alaya on chest compressions. It seems the plastic bag was applied after McCoy arrived. (14-17/184)

Raimondo estimated the time he and McCoy did CPR as 'approximately six minutes' (16/184).

Martin was pronounced at 7:30. This time is on the death certificate (133/184), and a number of other places in the discovery. The Event Reports indicate death (S-07) confirmed by 7:30:34 (pp. 11, 14, 7th Supplemental).

W-18 was still on the phone. Her call ended about 7:31:32.  She never mentioned hearing a siren.

EMT Kevin O'Rourke, who made the call that Martin was deceased, said 'I think, I think like within a minute of us being on scene, making contact, I called it' (FDLE interview, 7:49; unredacted in wav).

Is there anything else in the discovery that goes to the arrival time of SFD 38?

These events easily account for the time between 7:23:21 and 7:30:34. Raimondo's six minute estimate seems a little high.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Responding to post on another thread.

I've considered the possibility that this was when GZ pulled out from the CH. That TM had 'skipped' past him to the East and then South onto TTL and that GZ had lost sight of him. So he pulled out to follow and try and get a line of sight on him again. It also matches what GZ said in the re-enactment while parked at the CH.

1:34:25- Okay [turns in seat]. These assholes, they always get away. Yep [power window switch or gear shift and four footsteps/fade]

That's the Lee M. transcript.

For the record, I don't hear a non-vocal noise at 1:34, and I do hear noises that aren't mentioned in the transcript. But I'm not a noise analyst, so I'll leave aside what I hear and don't hear and talk about the transcript.

The 1:34 noise is the last one identified as a possible gear shift, in fact the last non-vocal noise mentioned in the transcript, until the door opens. If that's the truck being put in gear before it starts moving, when is it returned to park after it stops moving? If that's the truck being put in reverse to back out of the clubhouse parking lot, when is it put in drive? If one gear shift is audible, wouldn't others be?

Maybe Zimmerman put the truck in park and opened the door at the same time. I leave it to the vehicle experts to decide if that is plausible. What about the shift from reverse to drive? In the reenactment, the second gear shift is about 7 seconds after the first.

[nomatter_nevermind]

Responding to post on another thread.

George was where he should have been if his story about returning to his truck is true.

If Zimmerman started walking back from RVC about the time the NEN call ended, he would have reached the truck by the time of the confrontation, even at a slow walk.

[DebFrmHell]

Responding to post on another thread.

If Zimmerman started walking back from RVC about the time the NEN call ended, he would have reached the truck by the time of the confrontation, even at a slow walk.

Did he ever say how long he hung around RVC before turning and beginning the walk back?  It is probably just me but if he went to get a street number and he was expecting the police to call back for his location, he may have waited for some period of time before deciding to return to the truck.

Sorry, I don't remember and am feeling too lazy to go back over the reenactment tape. 

[nomatter_nevermind]

Did he ever say how long he hung around RVC before turning and beginning the walk back? 

Zimmerman never said he hung around at all after the NEN call ended.

In the last of the SPD interviews, he said he started walking back while he was still on the phone.

2/29-3, 10:35-51

[Recording]
(D) Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
(Z) Yeah.
(D) Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?
(Z) If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse -

Serino: What are you doing right now?

Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.

Audio

[nomatter_nevermind]

if he went to get a street number and he was expecting the police to call back for his location, he may have waited for some period of time before deciding to return to the truck.

Waiting for the police to call wasn't part of Zimmerman's story.

Zimmerman always said that he reached RVC while he was still on the phone. Just as he was about to give the dispatcher the address, the dispatcher implied the police might as well be called off, and asked Zimmerman to make the decision.

Zimmerman never explicitly explained his thinking at this point, but he seems to have assumed that, with the dispatcher handing this authority to him, it was also up to him to decide on whether the police were to be guided by an address or by directions. So Zimmerman dispensed with the address and gave directions. Then he started walking to his truck, and about that time he got off the phone and put it away.

Here's the reenactment version.

6:12-23

Zimmerman: I actually walked all the way to the street. And I was gonna give them this address. And they said, "Well, if he's not there, do you still want a police officer?" And I said "Yes."

At this point Zimmerman realized he had skipped the part about the dispatcher asking if he was following the suspect. He filled that in and continued.

6:42-7:08

Zimmerman: So I, that's when I walked straight through here, to get the address, so  -

Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: - that I could meet the police officer. And then they said, I said "He's not here." They said "Do you still want them to come?" And I said "Yes." And they said "Where do you want him to come to?" And I said, "You know what, just tell him to meet me at my truck, next to the clubhouse. If you go straight in through the clubhouse and makes [sic] a left, I have a Honda Ridgeland, a silver Honda Ridgeland, it's parked right there, I'll meet him right there." So then I started walking back.

Of course the above is a fairy tail. The dispatcher didn't say any such thing. It's not likely he would hand such authority to a civilian, especially one who might have been taken hostage by the suspicious person. As usual, what Zimmerman attributed to the dispatcher was neither true nor plausible.

Zimmerman didn't mention asking for a call on arrival until Singleton asked him about it, after that part of the recording had been played.

2/29-3, 15:40-16:03

Singleton: Why, why did you tell them, "Nevermind, just have them call me when they get here, and I'll tell them where I'm at?"

Zimmerman: I was frustrated that I couldn't think of the street name [crosstalk].

Singleton: But you were gonna be back in your car, from that distance, in less than fifteen or twenty seconds. So why would they need to call you?

Zimmerman: I felt like I didn't give them an adequate description of where I was from the clubhouse.

Zimmerman didn't say he wanted to give the police an address on RVC and meet them there. He implied that he intended to meet them at his truck, and wanted a call so he could give them better directions.