Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 75828 times)

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Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #180 on: March 06, 2013, 12:02:14 PM »
Thanks for the clarification.  Appreciate it.

Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #181 on: April 07, 2013, 02:59:22 AM »
Does anybody have any more information on how long GZ was on hold, in queue, or otherwise delayed in getting through directly to the non-emergency dispatcher upon first calling them?

I think that plays a very significant role in the timeline of things.  GZ appears to claim that he pulled into the clubhouse first before even dialing the non-emergency number.  He then details that he doesn't get through right away, and that TM actually passes him and "looks into his vehicle" while he's parked at the clubhouse, and then "loses contact" (visual?) with TM as I assume his view of TM is blocked by the foliage and/or the mailbox structure there at the clubhouse.  I'll link the contents of a post I made at another forum.

Quote
Go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAwukvlNc2U&t=26m15s

Listen to that til about the 30:00 mark.

Take special note of the exchanges at the following timestamps.

26:58 - DS - "When do you start calling the police; where are you?"

Remember that when he started calling the police, parked at the clubhouse, with TM still covering ground towards the clubhouse (and subsequently towards home, past GZ), he did not get through immediately. Perhaps they can look back in the logs to see how long he was in queue, if that's the case (unless he had to manually redial the number til he got through).

27:34

    DS - "You said he comes and he circles your car?"

    GZ - "No, ma'am, I lost contact with him (at the clubhouse), as I was trying to get through, cuz you have to..."

    DS - "So does he continue past you?"

    GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

    DS - "So he continues past you and you lose sight of him over here?"

    GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

28:10

    DS - "You said at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?

    GZ - "He looked into my vehicle, but he didn't circle it at that point in time"

    DS - "You're still in the car talking to 911, right?"

    GZ - "I'm trying to get through"

In other words, while GZ is parked at the clubhouse ("at that point in time"), and TM walks past him, he still hadn't gotten through to dispatch.

28:24 - 30:00 - GZ continues to explain how he drove his car from the clubhouse to where he eventually parks, and that's where TM circles his vehicle. So, it appears that at some point while GZ is driving between the clubhouse and where GZ parks his car on TTL, or maybe even after he parks his car, is when he finally gets through to dispatch. He explains further about what happened after TM disappears again "into the darkness" of the T, and when GZ gets out of his vehicle.

Anyway, the point is, GZ isn't at the clubhouse when the call to dispatch begins recording. Where he is at that point isn't certain, just that it's somewhere between the clubhouse and where GZ's vehicle ended up on TTL.

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #182 on: April 07, 2013, 03:43:49 AM »
Zimmerman never said he hung around at all after the NEN call ended.

In the last of the SPD interviews, he said he started walking back while he was still on the phone.

2/29-3, 10:35-51

Quote

    [Recording]
    (D) Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
    (Z) Yeah.
    (D) Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?
    (Z) If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse -

    Serino: What are you doing right now?

    Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.


Audio

If he's walking back to his car/truck at the point where he starts to give the directions to his truck that were of a quality such that the dispatcher tried to get an address in front of which the truck was parked instead, then that means he already has the RVC address he crossed through the T to get.

But it was the request for the truck address that supposedly triggered the walk over to RVC to get an address in the first place.

Not to mention if he's already walking back at that point, he'd have plenty of time to get back to and through the T before the end of the call, and the "ambush" at the T is still something like 2 to 2.5 minutes in the future.

So the obvious explanation is that a localized temporal anomaly swept through the area, resulting a reversal of the usual order of cause and effect and causing time to pass a rate for Zimmerman different from the rate for Martin and perhaps for both in comparison with the rest of the world.

Glad we got that straightened out.

 ;D

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #183 on: April 07, 2013, 04:04:24 AM »
Does anybody have any more information on how long GZ was on hold, in queue, or otherwise delayed in getting through directly to the non-emergency dispatcher upon first calling them?

I think that plays a very significant role in the timeline of things.  GZ appears to claim that he pulled into the clubhouse first before even dialing the non-emergency number.  He then details that he doesn't get through right away, and that TM actually passes him and "looks into his vehicle" while he's parked at the clubhouse, and then "loses contact" (visual?) with TM as I assume his view of TM is blocked by the foliage and/or the mailbox structure there at the clubhouse.  I'll link the contents of a post I made at another forum.


"Quote

    Go here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAwukvlNc2U&t=26m15s

    Listen to that til about the 30:00 mark.

    Take special note of the exchanges at the following timestamps.

    26:58 - DS - "When do you start calling the police; where are you?"

    Remember that when he started calling the police, parked at the clubhouse, with TM still covering ground towards the clubhouse (and subsequently towards home, past GZ), he did not get through immediately. Perhaps they can look back in the logs to see how long he was in queue, if that's the case (unless he had to manually redial the number til he got through).

    27:34

        DS - "You said he comes and he circles your car?"

        GZ - "No, ma'am, I lost contact with him (at the clubhouse), as I was trying to get through, cuz you have to..."

        DS - "So does he continue past you?"

        GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

        DS - "So he continues past you and you lose sight of him over here?"

        GZ - "Yes, ma'am"

    28:10

        DS - "You said at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?

        GZ - "He looked into my vehicle, but he didn't circle it at that point in time"

        DS - "You're still in the car talking to 911, right?"

        GZ - "I'm trying to get through"

    In other words, while GZ is parked at the clubhouse ("at that point in time"), and TM walks past him, he still hadn't gotten through to dispatch.

    28:24 - 30:00 - GZ continues to explain how he drove his car from the clubhouse to where he eventually parks, and that's where TM circles his vehicle. So, it appears that at some point while GZ is driving between the clubhouse and where GZ parks his car on TTL, or maybe even after he parks his car, is when he finally gets through to dispatch. He explains further about what happened after TM disappears again "into the darkness" of the T, and when GZ gets out of his vehicle.

    Anyway, the point is, GZ isn't at the clubhouse when the call to dispatch begins recording. Where he is at that point isn't certain, just that it's somewhere between the clubhouse and where GZ's vehicle ended up on TTL.
Okay so that puts

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?*
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

after Martin disappears from view for the first time before returning to circle the truck.

I suppose that fits in with the "Martin taunted him into following him into the dark" theory, but if he just got through being concerned that the kid might have a gun in his waistband, why in the holy hockey sticks does he jump out to go chasing after him on foot into the dark?

Is he totally nuts?

If he thinks the kid is headed for the back gate, why not use the truck to get there ahead of him?

Let's even examine the "other side's" theory that he deliberately intended to hunt him down and shoot him.  How would chasing after him on foot after he's already out of sight help him do that?  If the kid is really running  for the back entrance, then by the time George hustles over as far as the T, the kid is most of the way down the long sidewalk and about to be able to get onto that short east west stub of TTL that goes to the gate, which means after he turns left he's out of sight again.

I can't figure out from which "side" Zimmerman getting out of the truck makes no sense whatsoever more.


*And nearly forgot to mention, if that's the start of the coming back and circling, then Martin is not near the clubhouse, he's near the T.

(although I seem to remember a previous conversation where it was argued that since he was close to the clubhouse compared with his distance to Alpha Centauri that he was "near" it)


Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #184 on: April 07, 2013, 04:49:57 AM »
I suppose that fits in with the "Martin taunted him into following him into the dark" theory, but if he just got through being concerned that the kid might have a gun in his waistband, why in the holy hockey sticks does he jump out to go chasing after him on foot into the dark?

Is he totally nuts?

GZ describes the "hand in his waistband" maneuver as an attempt to "look tough", or a bluff.

http://trayvon.axiomamnesia.com/audio/george-zimmermans-statements-sanford-pd-audio/

#4 - 29:50

Quote
Singleton: He’s reaching in his waistband?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: So what do you think there’s a possibility that he has?
Zimmerman: Well, the guy 3 weeks, 2 weeks prior, did the same thing when he saw me, like put his hand in his jacket and watched me walk by and then he lit a cigarette. So I thought that he was just trying to, um, look tough or intimidate….
Singleton:  So, you didn’t think he had a weapon?
Zimmerman: No, no. I didn’t….
Singleton: You thought he was just trying to bluff you.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

https://www.txantimedia.com/?p=1025

Okay so that puts

Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse. Do you know what the—he's near the clubhouse right now?*
Zimmerman: Yeah, now he's coming towards me.

after Martin disappears from view for the first time before returning to circle the truck.

*And nearly forgot to mention, if that's the start of the coming back and circling, then Martin is not near the clubhouse, he's near the T.

(although I seem to remember a previous conversation where it was argued that since he was close to the clubhouse compared with his distance to Alpha Centauri that he was "near" it)

Sure, but is he going to tell the dispatcher "He's near the T"?  If anything GZ may have called it "a cut through", but I imagine the clubhouse was the closest landmark that GZ had a memorized address for (even though he recited it incorrectly) in which to relay to the dispatcher for an approximate location.  Maybe had he been closer to his own house he could have given that address.  "The best address I can give you is 111 RVC" (which to me implies he's not literally at the club house at the time).

Regarding it not being "near" the clubhouse:  Listen to this exchange where GZ is trying to recall what he said to the NEN dispatcher during the walk-through

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_2NeMrGCvg&t=9m17s

GZ describes his truck as "next to the clubhouse", when his truck was parked much closer to the T or cut-through.  He continues to describe how they would drive straight in through the clubhouse, and take a left (onto TTL) and they would find his truck "parked right there", where "right there" was very close to the west end of the T.  So in GZ speak, "next to" or "near" the clubhouse would be near the T as well.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #185 on: April 07, 2013, 05:34:09 AM »
I suppose that fits in with the "Martin taunted him into following him into the dark" theory, but if he just got through being concerned that the kid might have a gun in his waistband, why in the holy hockey sticks does he jump out to go chasing after him on foot into the dark?

Is he totally nuts?

If he thinks the kid is headed for the back gate, why not use the truck to get there ahead of him?

To the first conjecture, I would say that it's unlikely he expected to get close to the suspicious person.  Martin appears to be attempting evasion, not confrontation.  So, he gets out of the truck in an effort to discover the direction of flight.  I know he said otherwise, that he got out of the truck to get an address, but that doesn't square with the words and actions that are heard on the NEN call.

As between proceeding on foot and driving, Zimmerman must have thought that his best chance at observation was from on foot.  Likely didn't give it much thought, seems to have been a quick choice.

Offline Lousy1

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #186 on: April 07, 2013, 06:56:45 AM »
To the first conjecture, I would say that it's unlikely he expected to get close to the suspicious person.  Martin appears to be attempting evasion, not confrontation.  So, he gets out of the truck in an effort to discover the direction of flight.  I know he said otherwise, that he got out of the truck to get an address, but that doesn't square with the words and actions that are heard on the NEN call.

As between proceeding on foot and driving, Zimmerman must have thought that his best chance at observation was from on foot.  Likely didn't give it much thought, seems to have been a quick choice.

I agree that its is likely that GZ thought another one had got away. ( 'They always run') It is easier to interpret his actions if we adopt the perspective that he was resigned to dutifully waiting to file a vague report to a (most likely), less than enthusiastic police officer.

It is unlikely that George believed that he would observe TM again. While the initial exit from the truck was probably and instinctual effort to observe the fleeing suspect for a few more seconds it must have soon dawned on George that he didn't really have a chance to maintain that observation.

Once George accepted that disappointing realization, dawdling to find and exact address to his current location makes perfect sense. At some point it may have dawned on George that meeting at that exact point had small and diminishing utility and reasonably he decided to return to his nearby, dry truck.






« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 06:58:21 AM by Lousy1 »

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #187 on: April 07, 2013, 07:07:14 AM »
Well, since he never even got absolute confirmation that the other guy with his hand in his waistband did not have a gun, that's a pretty slim reed on which to assume that the guy who turned out to be Martin did not have one, either.

Offline cboldt

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #188 on: April 07, 2013, 07:31:09 AM »
Well, since he never even got absolute confirmation that the other guy with his hand in his waistband did not have a gun, that's a pretty slim reed on which to assume that the guy who turned out to be Martin did not have one, either.

My point was that even if Zimmerman thought the guy had a gun, he doesn't have to be nuts to get out of his truck, under the circumstances or thinking they guy (with a gun) is running away and making a (what Zimmerman thinks is a likely successful) attempt to evade detection.  Now, if Zimmerman had gotten out of his truck while being taunted, that's a horse of a different color.

Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #189 on: April 07, 2013, 03:19:55 PM »
If anything GZ may have called it "a cut through", but I imagine the clubhouse was the closest landmark that GZ had a memorized address for (even though he recited it incorrectly) in which to relay to the dispatcher for an approximate location.

I'm quite convinced that GZ was referring to Twin Trees as the "cut-through," not the dog walk.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #190 on: April 07, 2013, 03:47:18 PM »
I'm quite convinced that GZ was referring to Twin Trees as the "cut-through,"

As I recall, this theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand that in RATL, the major road circles the complex, so the street that 'cut's through' would be secondary. There's no reason for Zimmerman to expect that, and no reason to assume that Zimmerman was referring to a street when he used the phrase 'cut-through'.

Why would you be 'quite convinced' of such a speculation?

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #191 on: April 07, 2013, 05:42:12 PM »
I'm quite convinced that GZ was referring to Twin Trees as the "cut-through," not the dog walk.

In a way, it makes more sense, because he had just been asked where his truck was parked, not where his feet were walking.

Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #192 on: April 07, 2013, 05:44:32 PM »
As I recall, this theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand that in RATL, the major road circles the complex, so the street that 'cut's through' would be secondary. There's no reason for Zimmerman to expect that, and no reason to assume that Zimmerman was referring to a street when he used the phrase 'cut-through'.

No more than the alternate theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand he was referring to the walkway that connects Twin Trees Lane to Retreat View Drive. In neither case does Zimmerman expect the information to aid the dispatcher. He's just explaining why he can't provide an address.

Quote
Why would you be 'quite convinced' of such a speculation?

Because it would fit the exchange with Sean:

Quote
Sean: Okay, what-what address are you parked in front of?
GZ: Um, I don't know. It's a cut-through so I don't know the address.

GZ didn't claim to be parked at the entry to the dog walk. He said he was parked down the street, near a townhouse.

Because of how he described Twin Trees Lane to Singleton:

Quote
Zimmerman: Um, and, dispatch asked me where he went. I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on, I
Singleton: So you’d come off your street and gotten to another street
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: at some point? OK.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am. Goes in, cuts through the middle of my neighborhood.
Singleton: OK.

Because in the Singleton interview he refers to the walkway connecting the streets as the "dog walk" not the "cut through."
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 05:54:46 PM by MJW »

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #193 on: April 07, 2013, 06:09:49 PM »
As I recall, this theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand that in RATL, the major road circles the complex, so the street that 'cut's through' would be secondary. There's no reason for Zimmerman to expect that, and no reason to assume that Zimmerman was referring to a street when he used the phrase 'cut-through'.

Why would you be 'quite convinced' of such a speculation?

I dunno, maybe because he mentions "cut through" when asked what address his truck was parked in front of.  I assume his truck was not parked on the dog walk, but I guess its possible GZ interpreted the question "what address are you parked in front of" with "whats the address of where you are now". 

I don't know how to reconcile GZ's response to Serino's question that he was walking back to his truck as he was ending the call.  Clearly there is at least 90 seconds from the time GZ hangs up the phone until TM surprises him (his version).   It could be he started back towards his truck then when he hung up (maybe even got there to retrieve his keys), considered that he had never gotten the address he was looking for (or maybe forgot it and went to get it again) and walked back to RVC to get it.  IF he was walking back to his truck at the end of the call, he probably had enough time to walk from it to RVC, get the address and encounter TM on the way back.  It could be that he just doesn't remember exactly what he was doing at that time as evidenced by other versions that seem to be contradictory.  IT could be that he's lying and leaving out that he was walking somewhere else looking for TM.

I tend to think he didn't go looking for TM after the exchange with the dispatcher about following TM.  He appears to be able to see his truck and after giving step by step instructions about TM's movements, he doesn't mention anything again after this point. 

Man, wouldn't it be great to have GZ's GPS data.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #194 on: April 07, 2013, 07:10:03 PM »
No more than the alternate theory depends on the assumption that Zimmerman would expect the dispatcher to understand he was referring to the walkway that connects Twin Trees Lane to Retreat View Drive.

Total misunderstanding.

I'm assuming Zimmerman expected the dispatcher would understand 'cut-through' to mean a place where there was no house number.

The situation indicated in the interviews was a little more complicated. (Left click a photo to enlarge, or right click for a menu.)

The truck was parked roughly between two buildings on the north side of TTL. But these buildings face RVC, so they have no unit numbers visible from TTL.

The cut-through is on the south side of TTL, where another sidewalk passes between two buildings.

Of course Zimmerman was being over-literal, since the address of one of the units of the nearest building on the south side of TTL would have sufficed. And at that moment he couldn't have read one of those numbers because he wasn't there, by his own account. He was on RVC, or walking back from there.

Quote
Because of how he described Twin Trees Lane to Singleton

Zimmerman told Singleton 'I didn’t know the name of the street that I was on'. That is exactly what he did not say to Noffke.

 

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