Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 75594 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #240 on: April 12, 2013, 10:31:49 PM »
CVSA, 2/27, 27:04-31, 6:45:41-46:07 
On the NEN recording we never hear Zimmerman admit to Noffke that he didn't know the street name. This is the only time in the SPD interviews that he claimed to have done so.

Noffke asked for the address. That's a request for the street and street number. GZ's doesn't have a built-in tape recorder. As on many other occasions, he recalled his interpretation of the substance of Noffke's request and his response. If anything, this supports the argument that GZ's reply on the NEN call was meant to convey that he didn't know the street name.

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #241 on: April 12, 2013, 10:50:52 PM »
I think it would be very unlikely that the officers canvassing the area wouldn't know the name of the shooter.

They weren't looking for the shooter.  As I understand it, they were looking to see if any of the cars were from outside the neighborhood to see if that would help in identifying the victim.

Zimmerman looked beat up, the victim didn't (except for that one bullet hole, of course), so at that point the self-defense claim probably was provisionally accepted to a certain extent, and they probably weren't in the "we're going to turn this entire neighborhood upside down and inside out until we figure out exactly what happened here" mode.

And as far as I know, they only had the one guy out there checking plates when he wasn't helping put up the yellow tape or whatever on the periphery of the "crime" scene.

Offline unitron

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #242 on: April 12, 2013, 10:56:22 PM »
I agree with the caveat that if had been in some location/position that indicated deception (as opposed to Zimmerman being off by a few yards which would be immaterial margin of error) someone would have mentioned it in a narrative or interveiw. That is, of course, IMHO.

Are we certain of that? It sounded to me as if they were looking for Zimmerman's vehicle at the specific time of the tag request.
 

Radio Traffic listen around 9:15.

15 minutes. I had not noticed that.

At first, I put the two tags close in time together which made it seem unlikely that the two were related since the dispatcher only uses the last name. Now that seperation is apparent, that argument becomes less persuasive.

As I understand it, they were looking for vehicles which didn't belong in the neighborhood to see if they could maybe find something to help ID the victim, and Officer B was working the periphery of the scene and might not have had all of the then known details.

I guess I'm going to have to listen to all that radio traffic to get a better handle on what was going on.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #243 on: April 12, 2013, 11:00:44 PM »
According to the summary of the SAO interview with Bernosky (3/284), he was running tags 'to attempt to identify the victim.'

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #244 on: April 13, 2013, 12:28:29 AM »
Why didn't he park further (farther?) east, even closer to the bend

Good question, which the investigators never asked.

Closely related, why did he park at that time? He said he was looking for Martin, but he also indicated that he parked before seeing him.

Audio

2/26-2, 3:25-36
Quote
Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: He comes out from where?

Zimmerman: I don't know.

Singleton: OK. All of a sudden you just notice he's circling your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

This is one of the more variable parts of Zimmerman's story. In the reenactment, he said that he did catch sight of Martin about the time he parked, then Martin disappeared and reappeared before circling the truck. The wind rose and obscured some words when he was talking about seeing Martin, so it's not clear if he said that he saw Martin before or after he parked. (3:21-55)

With the possible exception of the reenactment, Zimmerman never explicitly said that he saw Martin before he parked on TTL, or explained why he parked at that time or that place.

Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #245 on: April 13, 2013, 12:29:04 AM »
They weren't looking for the shooter.  As I understand it, they were looking to see if any of the cars were from outside the neighborhood to see if that would help in identifying the victim.

I didn't say that's who they were looking for. I said I'd be surprised if they didn't know his name. The fact that the dispatcher only gave the last name and nothing more seems to indicate the dispatcher knew who Zimmerman was and expected that the officer would also. I didn't say the officer definitely wrote down the location; I just objected to your assertion that he didn't.

Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #246 on: April 13, 2013, 12:39:05 AM »
Zimmerman's recollections are clearly unreliable, but I know of no evidence that he was not at the clubhouse when he gave Noffke an address for it.

If you believe there is evidence that he was at the clubhouse when he offers the clubhouse address to Noffke, would that evidence be his statements to investigators after the incident?

I agree with leftwig's posts earlier in that by GZ choosing to say "the best address I can give you" seems to indicate the current situation wasn't literally taking place there.  Right after he offers the "best" address, his words seem to indicate he's actually viewing Martin at that time (using present-tense words), but if GZ is parked at the clubhouse, as indicated in the walk-through video, TM would have to have been approaching him from the direction of Taaffe's house, or be standing directly in front of him, like on the clubhouse porch, for GZ to have had a visual.  There was/is an abundance of foliage/trees blocking any view towards Twin Trees from that vantage point.

~25 seconds after giving the address, GZ says - "He's here now, he was just staring, looking at all the houses" (where is here?), ~15 seconds after that "Now he's coming towards me" (Where is GZ at that point?).  The way GZ says "Now he's coming towards me" seems to indicate that this is an alteration of the behavior preceding it, so if GZ is at the clubhouse at that time, TM would be walking towards the clubhouse, but for GZ to be able to see this (based on the foliage blocking his view of TTL), TM could only be coming from the direction of Taaffe's house (or some other random direction that hasn't been considered).

This whole ~45 second, "now he's coming towards me" incident seems to culminate with the "These assholes" comment.  About 5 seconds after that comment, he starts giving directions to Noffke, which includes going "past the clubhouse", and making a left, which to me sounds like directions to the approximate location his truck is at when he leaves his vehicle.

Anyway... I can't seem to make sense of any of GZ's comments on the NEN call if GZ is actually at the clubhouse when the call begins.  If GZ is already somewhere on TTL, with TM somewhere in the vicinity of the T, and within GZ's sights, the comments on the NEN call make a LOT more sense (IMO).

ETA:  I don't feel I fully completed my thought process here, but hopefully I've said enough to make what I'm trying to say understandable.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 12:46:09 AM by Departure »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #247 on: April 13, 2013, 01:05:55 AM »
If you believe there is evidence that he was at the clubhouse when he offers the clubhouse address to Noffke, would that evidence be his statements to investigators after the incident?

Yes.

Quote
I agree with leftwig's posts earlier in that by GZ choosing to say "the best address I can give you" seems to indicate the current situation wasn't literally taking place there.

The situation was Martin, not Zimmerman.


 

Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #248 on: April 13, 2013, 01:13:45 AM »
The situation was Martin, not Zimmerman.

I understand that, but it appears GZ has a visual of "the situation" (TM) at that very moment.  I tried to break it down with the rest of my post how it doesn't seem to make sense that GZ is at the clubhouse then.  I'm not sure if I was successful in expressing my thought process.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #249 on: April 13, 2013, 01:16:53 AM »
There was/is an abundance of foliage/trees blocking any view towards Twin Trees from that vantage point.

I don't know of any evidence that the foliage would have prevented Zimmerman from seeing a six foot person walking down the middle of TTL, as he told Singleton.

Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #250 on: April 13, 2013, 01:32:05 AM »
I don't know of any evidence that the foliage would have prevented Zimmerman from seeing a six foot person walking down the middle of TTL, as he told Singleton.

Sorry, this is a bit long:

Quote
Singleton: OK. And then where do you go from there? This is where you start, when do you start calling the police, where are you?
Zimmerman: I pulled in front of the clubhouse.
Singleton: OK, did you pass him?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, so he was here and you passed him and went over here.
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, put an “x” there that that’s where he…ah, just, ah, put “911” that that’s where you were when you called 911.
Zimmerman: Well, it was the non-emergency line.
Singleton: OK. Well, what…that’s where you called the police, right?
Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.
Singleton: OK, and then he’s behind you? He’s still over here, correct…
Zimmerman: I…
Singleton: Cause you pass him
Zimmerman: Right.
Singleton: OK, you pass him and this is where he’s looking in the houses, OK. And then…where do you go when you realize…you said he comes and he circles your car?
Zimmerman: No, ma’am. I lost contact of him as I was trying to get through cause you have to…

From the above, it sounds to me like he pulls into the clubhouse to "start" calling the police, but he "loses contact of him" (I presume this means he loses a visual), as he's trying to get through (which would still place GZ at the clubhouse, especially if we're entertaining the idea he was still at the clubhouse when he does finally get through, and the NEN call begins recording).
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 01:34:15 AM by Departure »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #251 on: April 13, 2013, 01:32:23 AM »
~25 seconds after giving the address, GZ says - "He's here now,

Yes, the timeline is tight. I think Zimmerman would have to start backing out of the parking lot before he finished giving the address, maybe even before he started giving it. But it could still be fair to say he was 'at the clubhouse'.


Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #252 on: April 13, 2013, 02:32:16 AM »
The fact that the dispatcher only gave the last name and nothing more seems to indicate the dispatcher knew who Zimmerman was and expected that the officer would also.

Why would it indicate that?

I'm not sure she didn't give a first name. It sounds to me like a glitch in the recording at that point.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #253 on: April 13, 2013, 02:40:26 AM »
Right after he offers the "best" address, his words seem to indicate he's actually viewing Martin at that time (using present-tense words)

Zimmerman didn't say he could see Martin. Zimmerman might have been assuming Martin was still acting as he was when last seen, or just using 'narrative present'. I wouldn't assume Zimmerman could see Martin until he said 'He's here now . . .'

Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #254 on: April 13, 2013, 02:48:29 AM »
Why would it indicate that?

I'm not sure she didn't give a first name. It sounds to me like a glitch in the recording at that point.

It seems pretty obvious to me. Dispatchers don't normally respond to requests for license plate information by just giving the last name of the owner.

 

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