Author Topic: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2  (Read 76016 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #315 on: April 14, 2013, 02:40:36 PM »
I just had written a long, detailed explanation of how there wasn't enough time...

That's been done a few times. RJ just keeps ignoring it.

Unitron, MJW, and I did it in response to a timeline Jeralyn proposed some time ago.

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this forum likes to log you out after a relatively brief period of time.  Maybe I need to update my forum settings... ugh...

I've never had that problem. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it either.

I like to compose long posts in Notepad, saving from time to time. I've been doing that for a long time, not just on this forum.

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Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #316 on: April 14, 2013, 03:26:30 PM »
That's been done a few times. RJ just keeps ignoring it.

Unitron, MJW, and I did it in response to a timeline Jeralyn proposed some time ago.
Nobody has posted a timeline along with irrefutable logic that supports it.  That includes specifying exactly what the assumptions are.  I guess nobody believes Zimmerman's commentary on the NEN call during the third interview with Serino and Singleton.  He claims to still be at the clubhouse until at least 1:16 on the call and insists the first close encounter with Martin happened before then.  Unfortunately they didn't have the tape of the reenactment to ask him to explain the circling after he had parked on TTL.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #317 on: April 14, 2013, 04:18:06 PM »
Nobody has posted a timeline along with irrefutable logic that supports it.

Red herring.

Martin seems to be passing the truck about 1:30 on the NEN recording. Zimmerman has him starting to run at about 2:05, at which time Zimmerman was already parked on TTL. That's barely time for Zimmerman or Martin to reach their respective places (unless Martin did some running that Zimmerman didn't mention). Certainly there was no time for a second passing.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 04:21:21 PM by nomatter_nevermind »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #318 on: April 14, 2013, 05:09:35 PM »
Are you assuming Zimmerman is accurately stating what he is seeing on the NEN call, using the correct tenses?  If so, which of his subsequent statements, describing the situation from seeing Martin by Taafe's up to "Sh*t, he's running.", are not correct?

Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #319 on: April 14, 2013, 06:03:54 PM »
I guess nobody believes Zimmerman's commentary on the NEN call during the third interview with Serino and Singleton.  He claims to still be at the clubhouse until at least 1:16 on the call and insists the first close encounter with Martin happened before then.  Unfortunately they didn't have the tape of the reenactment to ask him to explain the circling after he had parked on TTL.

I went into detail about my thoughts on what you're referring to in another GZ/TM thread on another forum.  This is a mostly word-for-word quote.  The 2nd and 3rd paragraphs are the most relevant I think.  You'll have to actually listen to the intonation of how the words are said, in the link I've provided, rather than just read the transcripts:

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GZ has ADD, ADD is known to have a significant effect on memory. He has attempted to detail what he remembers of that night. Many things are consistent from interview to interview; sometimes things aren't totally consistent, or even contradictory. If you actually look at all the statements combined, you can begin to piece together a somewhat coherent story of what likely actually happened. I don't think this is him being intentionally deceitful, I think this is him struggling with his memory, and being a poor communicator in general. Listen to all the times he seems to give absent minded "Yes ma'ams" or things of that nature, when it doesn't even appear that he knows what the investigator is referring to.

Listen to this excerpt here, especially from the beginning (where the link picks up the interview) to about 52:29, and even moreso from 51:52 to 52:02. Listen to how much Singleton stutters/stumbles with her words when she's trying to ask GZ a question. How could he understand what she's saying? At 52:02 he just politely says "Yes ma'am", and in doing so, he's contradicting (apparently absentmindedly) his statements he gave to Singleton two days prior. At 52:13 he seems to answer a question she doesn't even ask. Even she seems to be unsure that he knows what he's saying with the way she says "Ok...." at 52:29.

Continue listening to 54:49 for the entire confusing exchange there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=51m40s

Keep in mind that this is the very first time he's heard the NEN call, and he's having to spontaneously make sense of the fact that what he remembers and what actually happened, aren't apparently in sync, all while being questioned by two police investigators over a homicide he's involved in. He says "I don't remember even saying he had a button on his shirt". Listen to the deteriorating confidence in his "I think so's". He ends it with a bewildered "I don't remember..." Is all of that just feigned confusion?

Given the above, I don't think even GZ would "believe" his commentary on the NEN call given during that interview.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #320 on: April 14, 2013, 06:56:37 PM »
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ADD is known to have a significant effect on memory.

Do you have a link to an authoritative description of how ADD affects memory?

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Listen to all the times . . . it doesn't even appear that he knows what the investigator is referring to.

Examples?

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How could he understand what she's saying? At 52:02 he just politely says "Yes ma'am"

This is an arbitrary interpretation. I understand Singleton's question, and it seems you do as well. I see no reason to think Zimmerman didn't.

In a police interrogation, giving a 'polite' affirmative to a question not understood, would be very foolish.

Zimmerman wasn't shy about offering explanations and corrections. If he didn't understand a question, I think he would say so.

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he's contradicting (apparently absentmindedly) his statements he gave to Singleton two days prior.

What statements did he contradict?

To me Zimmerman sounds fully focused, not the least bit absent minded.

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Even she seems to be unsure that he knows what he's saying with the way she says "Ok...." at 52:29.

To me it sounds like she doesn't believe him. The subtext of the preceding question might be rendered: You're sticking with that story?

Offline Departure

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #321 on: April 14, 2013, 09:00:21 PM »
Do you have a link to an authoritative description of how ADD affects memory?
Not sure if this will be satisfactory for you, if you're specifically looking for "how" it affects memory.  If you do a basic Google search for "ADHD and memory" there's a large list of results to choose from.  Here's a couple links:

http://www.insideadhd.org/Article.aspx?id=1108
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Memory impairment can often be present in people with ADHD, and could make remembering the rules of the road or complicated directions difficult.

http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=search.displayRecord&UID=2000-05190-004
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Schizophrenia and attention deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) are both associated with deficits in inhibition and working memory, although in ADHD the working memory deficit is hypothesized to be secondary to the inhibitory deficit.

Examples?
I don't have time to fish up specific time stamps, but it's often when they're asking him things like "You understand why this is a problem, right?" or "You understand why this doesn't make sense, right?".  He seems to oftentimes quickly say "Yes, sir", or "Yes, ma'am", but never offers to further explain, he just nods politely giving them the positive/affirmative response they seem to be seeking.

This is an arbitrary interpretation. I understand Singleton's question, and it seems you do as well. I see no reason to think Zimmerman didn't.
I understand it now with the ability to rewind it and play it back multiple times so I don't get thrown off by all her stuttering, etc.  GZ didn't have that ability in that moment though.

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Singleton: Now youíre saying heís coming up to your car. Does that mean youíve already, at this point in the tape, youíre already on Twin Tree, the street you didnít know the name of at the time?
Zimmerman: Um, no, I was on, I called when I was at the clubhouse.
Notice here how he isn't even addressing her question.  She's asking him to connect the events he's hearing on tape, for the first time, at that very moment, to his memory of the events of the night in question, and to compare them to what he told her two nights previous as well (before he was able to listen to the tape).  He already seems confused about things he's said on the tape, so it appears he's struggling to make sense of what he's hearing on the tape (what actually happened) with what his memory of the events had been up to that point.

In a police interrogation, giving a 'polite' affirmative to a question not understood, would be very foolish.
I agree.  I think it's abundantly clear, via all the interviews, reenactments, voice examplars, etc., all without legal counsel, that GZ was making no attempts to avoid "foolishness".

Zimmerman wasn't shy about offering explanations and corrections. If he didn't understand a question, I think he would say so.
Well, perhaps he misunderstood her question, without realizing it.  I think the excerpt that I listed above gives an example of that.  Here's another example of GZ not understanding what the investigators (Serino in this example) is asking of him:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWyzw-UM_WU&t=1h2m25s

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Serino: Itís 84 seconds. From the point where you were walking back to your car from Retreat View to Twin Tree basically.
Singleton: Itís what, about 30 feet.
Serino: Thatís a minute andÖ20 seconds. Did you stop at the ďTĒ?

Here Serino is asking him if he stopped at the T on the way BACK to his truck, from RVC to TTL (when he claims TM attacked him).

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Zimmerman: No, I walked through. I stopped on Retreat View Circle.

Here GZ is explaining that he didn't stop at the T on his way TO RVC.  He obviously doesn't understand what Serino is asking him.

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Serino: Thatís where you were standing?
Zimmerman: Yes, sir.
Serino: OK. But you didnít get back into your car?
Zimmerman: No, sir.
Serino: Why not?
Zimmerman: I wasÖ
Why not?  Duh... because TM attacked him.  Serino is asking him why he didn't get back in his truck, because Serino thinks GZ is explaining that he walked through the T back to his truck, but GZ is describing how he walked through to RVC, from TTL (which happens during the NEN call).

What statements did he contradict?

To me Zimmerman sounds fully focused, not the least bit absent minded.
I'm not sure if I see a contradiction now.  I just think he didn't understand her question.

To me it sounds like she doesn't believe him. The subtext of the preceding question might be rendered: You're sticking with that story?
Fair enough.  I believe it's an "OK....", like "suit yourself..." as in, she tried to get him on the right track, but he's sticking to his guns (which he shortly thereafter falters, with all his "I think so's" and "I don't remember..."

Here's another quote about Serino noticing that GZ seems to be confused:

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Serino: Itís a minute and 20 seconds. It doesnít sound like you were saying, well it doesnít sound like you quite recall exactly what happened at that point, OK?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #322 on: April 14, 2013, 09:13:21 PM »
Here's another quote about Serino noticing that GZ seems to be confused:

I don't disagree that Zimmerman was confused. I just had some questions about specific points.

Thanks for the response.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #323 on: April 14, 2013, 10:36:16 PM »
Why not?  Duh... because TM attacked him.

That's like saying Martin didn't go home because Zimmerman shot him.

Zimmerman had said that he was walking back to his car while he was giving directions.

Audio

2/29-3, 10:35-51
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[Recording]
(D) Alright, George, we do have them on the way. Do you want to meet with the officer when they get out there?
(Z) Yeah.
(D) Alright, where are you gonna meet with them at?
(Z) If they come in through the gate, tell them to go straight past the clubhouse -

Serino: What are you doing right now?

Zimmerman: Walking back to my car.

This was about a minute before the end of the call.

In the reenactment Zimmerman took about 20 seconds to walk from RVC to the place he said Martin attacked him, and he wasn't walking briskly.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #324 on: April 15, 2013, 07:34:24 AM »
That's been done a few times. RJ just keeps ignoring it.

Unitron, MJW, and I did it in response to a timeline Jeralyn proposed some time ago.

I've never had that problem. I don't recall anyone else mentioning it either.

I like to compose long posts in Notepad, saving from time to time. I've been doing that for a long time, not just on this forum.

You might be interested in this. (Click a photo to enlarge and see all the text. Right click for a menu.)

Log out then log back in.   Under the password are two options.  It is automatically set to time out after 60 minutes.  Change it to ALWAYS instead.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #325 on: April 15, 2013, 12:02:41 PM »
Agreed.

I don't see how either point [that Sean asking what address GZ was parked in front of is common vernacular for an address of your location] is relevant. It seems much of this discussion is at cross purposes.

The relevance is that GZ, like everyone else, wouldn't have interpreted Seans request to be literal in only providing an address of the location that he was was parked directly in front of and that giving the address of a nearest apartment (no more than about 10 feet away) would suffice to answer the request.

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I'm not convinced Zimmerman told the truth about where he left the truck, but I have been assuming that for this discussion.
I think its highly possible his representation of where his SUV was located upon exiting may not have been accurate.  I have no reason to believe he was not being truthful about where he believed the truck to have been parked.

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Certainly not. Where do you get that idea [that GZ knew the name of TTL while talking with Sean, but chose not to mention it]?

Was trying to come up with an explanation for why you believe GZ would have responded to Sean's request for an address location on his SUV with "I don't know, its a cut through" with the "cut through" reference being a sidewalk.  Whether he was parked in front of the SW or NE sidewalk "cut throughs", I can't think of why GZ would have worded his answer this way.  Both cut throughs are located right next to town homes that were within a few feet, which he could have easily used in answer to Seans request.  The more likely explanation for GZ to say "I don't know" would be because he didn't know the address of any landmark that had an actual address to provide Sean.  Since he could have seen the house numbers from several homes, the logical conclusion is that he didn't know the street name and this would be the reason he couldn't provide Sean with an address, not because side walk "cut throughs" don't have addresses.

Personally, I do believe GZ "knew" the name of TTL, but at the moment he was trying to relay it, couldn't pull it from his memory.  Maybe its easy for me to believe it because on occasion, I have the same issue at recalling trivial pieces of information on quick notice.

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Neither you nor MJW have addressed the issue that I think is decisive.

It is quite common for a street that 'cuts through' a neighborhood to be the neighborhood's major artery. I think that arrangement is more common than one like RATL, with the main street encircling the neighborhood. Even if such a layout is very common in the gated communities of Sanford, I doubt it is so predominate that someone would expect 'cut-through' to be automatically understood as equivalent to 'secondary street'. Without such an expectation, saying the street is 'a cut-through' is no explanation for not knowing an address.
I can't speak as to how common the layout is that you describe.  I can talk to the specific layout of RaTL.  As we are all aware of, there is a road (RVC) that circles the complex and is the address that the clubhouse uses.  Roughly 90 percent of all homes in the complex are located on this outer loop.  As you mention, this is clearly the main road for residents in RaTL.  There is a road that goes through (or cuts through) the middle of the complex that connects the back entrances.  GZ lived on the outer loop and I would guess seldom ever used TTL while driving.  GZ attempted to provide an address earlier to Sean but could only come up with "the best address I can give you".  This is a clear indication that GZ doesn't know the address of the location he's currently at and is providing the closest address to his location that he knows.  His later statements back up the notion that GZ could not remember the name of TTL.  GZ says he got out of his vehicle to look for a street sign.  I don't buy that this was his primary reason, but I do believe he would have been looking for a street sign while sitting in his SUV on the phone with SEAN and couldn't see one.  I think its not unlikely that he did look for a street sign for TTL while outside his vehicle.  He never saw one.  Sean then asks, what address are you parked in front of.  GZ didn't know what street his SUV was parked on, one of two pieces of information necessary for providing an address.  GZ responds, "I don't know [what address my SUV is parked in front of], its a cut through".  I think GZ used this verbiage for 2 reasons.  One, its an explanation for why he couldn't remember the street name because its not one he used.  I also think it was a physical description of the street he was on.  There were only 2 streets in the complex. One that circled the perimeter and one that went through the middle.  If you were to give someone who had no previous knowledge of RaTL a map of the area and asked them asked them which street was the cut through, which one are they going to choose?

To reciprocate the question, what good would it have been for GZ to tell Sean he was parked at a cut through if he was talking about one of the many sidewalk cut throughs in the complex?   IF I said I was  parked at the sidewalk area you are calling the NE cut through, how would you know whether I was on TTL or RVC?  I have a difficult time believing that the person who couldn't remember the name of the street would say he can't give the address his vehicle is parked in front of because it is parked in front of a sidewalk.  It seems much more likely to me he'd be focused on not being able to recall the name of the street and that would be the object of the conversation.  Am I 100% certain?  No, but I think its much more likely than the alternative.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #326 on: April 15, 2013, 05:11:43 PM »
It is automatically set to time out after 60 minutes.  Change it to ALWAYS instead.

Now I remember. It's been so long since the forum was launched, I forgot we had to do that.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #327 on: April 16, 2013, 12:55:24 AM »

I'm specifically referring to the parts of his story that he claims happened prior to the circling event (I believe the circling event happens from approx 0:55 to 1:30).

I agree that the circling was then if it happened at all.

Some problems.

0:41-55
Quote
Zimmerman: He's here now, and he's just staring -
Dispatcher: OK, just walking around the area?
Zimmerman: - looking at all the houses.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: And now he's just staring at me.
Dispatcher: OK. [Unintelligible] said it's one one one one Retreat View, or one eleven? 
Zimmerman: That's the, that's the clubhouse. He's -
Dispatcher: That's the clubhouse?
Zimmerman: - at the clubhouse now.

0:54-59
Quote
Dispatcher: Do you know what the, he's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah. Now he's coming towards me.

In the NEN call, Martin seems to be approaching from the direction of the clubhouse. I know we've been over this before. Some people don't hear Zimmerman saying that through the crosstalk. That's not a satisfactory solution for those of us who do hear it.

Another problem has gotten less attention. There's a period of more than 10 seconds in which Zimmerman seems to observe Martin loitering, and 'looking at all the houses.' This isn't mentioned in any of the SPD interviews. It seems to be directly contradicted, in statements that suggest, more or less strongly, that Martin was already approaching when Zimmerman became aware of him at this point.

Audio

2/26-1, 11:06-34
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Zimmerman:  The dispatcher, or whoever answered the phone, asked me where they went. And I said I wasn't sure because I lost visual of him when he went in between houses. And, he said "Well, can you tell me what direction he went?" And I said "Not really." And then all of a sudden, I see him, circling my car. And then he goes back into the darkness.

2/26 Written Statement, pp. 1-2
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I told the dispatcher what I had witnessed, the dispatcher took note of my location & the suspect fled to a darkened area of the sidewalk, as the dispatcher was asking me for an exact location the suspect emerged from the darkness & circled my vehicle.

2/26-2, 3:19-36
Quote
Singleton: We're just, we're gonna X this one out, because it's not where you meant. You meant that you came around here, and ended up here.

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: He comes out from where?

Zimmerman: I don't know.

Singleton: OK. All of a sudden you just notice he's circling your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Reenactment, 3:33-4:00
Quote
Zimmerman:  And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses.

Zimmerman: And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything-

Sgt. Smith: Right.

Zimmerman: -but he had his hand in his waistband.

CVSA, 27:28-28:09 , 6:46:05-46
Quote
Zimmerman: When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address. And, they're like, "We need to know what house you're in front of." And I said, "Listen, if you come to the clubhouse, go straight, and left, and you'll see me there." At this point the guy walked around my car. He had his hand in his waistband. I didn't hear if he said anything. My windows were up. It was raining. And I was on the phone with the non-emergency dispatcher. And, then he disappeared back through a cut-through, between the houses.

Zimmerman said Martin was looking at, or 'into', multiple houses when Zimmerman first saw him, in his first SPD interview (2/26-1, 4:08-4:47; 10:25-52), his written statement (p. 1), and his last SPD interview (2/29-3, 0:51-1:18). In the reenactment he only mentioned Taaffe's house at that point (0:00-1:35). In the CVSA it was a single, unidentified house, presumably Taaffe's (25:39-51).

In the reenactment, Zimmerman mentioned Martin 'looking around at the houses and stuff', when he passed Zimmerman at the clubhouse (2:15-32).

Never in the SPD interviews was Martin's house-looking behavior associated temporally with the moments preceding the approach and circling of the truck, or spatially with the cut-through area.
 
One more issue.

0:54-1:16
Quote
Dispatcher: Do you know what the- He's near the clubhouse right now?
Zimmerman: Yeah. Now he's coming towards me.
Dispatcher: OK.
Zimmerman: He's got his hand in his waistband.
Zimmerman: [Unintelligible] he's a black male.
Dispatcher: OK. How old would you say he looks [crosstalk]?
Zimmerman: He's got a button on his shirt. Late teens.
Dispatcher: Late teens? OK.
Zimmerman: Mmhmm.

The 'black male' and 'button' comments suggest that Zimmerman was getting a close look at Martin for the first time. Listening to Zimmerman's voice on the recording, I feel it is very hard to believe this is not the case.

In the SPD interviews, Zimmerman claimed to have had at least one close look at Martin before he called the police.

Offline MJW

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #328 on: April 16, 2013, 01:58:01 PM »
Some people don't hear Zimmerman saying that through the crosstalk. That's not a satisfactory solution for those of us who do hear it.

I just want to be clear that at least for me it isn't that I can't tell whether GZ says "He's at the clubhouse now" due to the crosstalk; it's that I don't believe that's what he says.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Timelines and Routes, Thread 2
« Reply #329 on: April 16, 2013, 05:01:00 PM »
I just want to be clear that at least for me it isn't that I can't tell whether GZ says "He's at the clubhouse now" due to the crosstalk; it's that I don't believe that's what he says.

A pure act of faith?

 

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