Timelines and Routes, Thread 2

[MJW]

A pure act of faith?

Not at all. I've listened to at least a hundred times, at both normal and slow speed. The sounds do not seem to me to be consistent with GZ saying "He's at the clubhouse now."

[nomatter_nevermind]

The sounds do not seem to me to be consistent with GZ saying "He's at the clubhouse now."

Not to be contentious, but for my curiosity, would you like to be more specific about the inconsistencies?

[Departure]

I just want to be clear that at least for me it isn't that I can't tell whether GZ says "He's at the clubhouse now" due to the crosstalk; it's that I don't believe that's what he says.

I believe he says "He's at the clubhouse" and he starts to say "Now he's coming towards me", but he cuts himself off (because Sean is speaking over him) after "Now he's..." and repeats himself after Sean speaks again.

So it's:

GZ - "That's the clubhouse, he's at the clubhouse. Now he's..."
Noffke - "He's near the clubhouse now?"
GZ - "Yeah, now he's coming towards me"

[MJW]

Not to be contentious, but for my curiosity, would you like to be more specific about the inconsistencies?

I don't think you're being contentious. I believe the the first three words could easily be "He's at the." The next word sounds like it has two syllables, but the second syllable sounds too clipped to be "house," and the inflection doesn't seem right. The word sounds sort of like "corner" to me. The  vowel in the next accented word doesn't sound like the diphthong in "now." It may be an "a" like the "a" in "cat," but it's hard to tell with Sean talking over him. There may be an unaccented syllable before that word.

[MJW]

I believe he says "He's at the clubhouse" and he starts to say "Now he's coming towards me", but he cuts himself off (because Sean is speaking over him) after "Now he's..." and repeats himself after Sean speaks again.

Nothing in the way he says the phrase gives me the impression he's not completing what he means to say

[Departure]

Nothing in the way he says the phrase gives me the impression he's not completing what he means to say

The end of that phrase has the same rhythm and tone/sound, rise/fall (not sure how to appropriately describe it) as the way he says "Yeah, now he's coming towards me" (the bolded part)

ETA:  Sounds a little different actually.  I feel pretty confident that that is what he's saying though (and I know by me saying that gives it a whoooooooole lot more credibility  )

[nomatter_nevermind]

I guess nobody believes Zimmerman's commentary on the NEN call during the third interview with Serino and Singleton.

It's not as if there aren't good reasons for doubting it. I think it makes a poor fit with Zimmerman's earlier SPD interviews. Zimmerman often expressed uncertainty during the NEN commentary, more frequently than in the earlier interviews. And there are the timeline issues.

Of the 'waistband' event, Zimmerman said 'I think I'm still at the clubhouse, yes' (2/29-3, 3:04-24). This was the first time in the NEN commentary that Zimmerman qualified a statement about his location.

Before 2/29, the hand in the waistband was invariably associated with Martin circling the truck, and it was never suggested that there were two such incidents. The circling was always on TTL if its location was specified. Zimmerman twice denied that the circling was at the clubhouse.

Audio

Maps

2/26-2, 1:33-48

Singleton: OK. You pass him, and this is where he's looking in the houses. OK. And then, where do you go, when you realize, you said he comes, and he circles your car?

Zimmerman: No, ma'am. I lost contact of him, as I was trying to get through, because you have to-

Singleton: So does he continue past you?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma’am.

2/26-2, 2:15-25

Singleton: OK. And, you said at some point he comes back and circles your car? Has he already done that?

Zimmerman: He looked into my vehicle, but he didn't circle it at that point in time.

2/26-2, 3:19-30

Singleton: We're just, we're gonna X this one out, because it's not where you meant. You meant that you came around here, and ended up here.

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Singleton: OK. OK. You ended up here. And then, is that when he circles your car?

Zimmerman: Yes, ma'am.

Reenactment, 3:33-4:00

Zimmerman: And I saw him walking back that way, and then cut through the back of the houses. He looked back, and he noticed me, and he cut back through the houses. I was still on the phone with non- [recording seems to skip].

Sgt. Smith: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: And then he came back, and he started walking up towards the grass, and then came down and circled my car. And I told the operator that. He was circling my car. I didn't hear if he said anything-

Sgt. Smith: Right.

Zimmerman: -but he had his hand in his waistband.

CVSA, 26:56-27:49, 6:45:33-46:26

Zimmerman: The operator asked me if I could get to somewhere where I could see, or at least give them a direction of where he was headed. 

Erwin: Mmhmm.

Zimmerman: And I said "Yes." So I pulled out, and I drove adjacent to the clubhouse. And, I was unfamiliar with the street name. The operator asked me what street I was on. And it's not the street that I live on. It's a side street that cuts through the neighborhood. And I told him I didn't know. And, they said, "We need to know - " When I was at the clubhouse, I gave them the clubhouse address. And, they're like, "We need to know what house you're in front of." And I said, "Listen, if you come to the clubhouse, go straight, and left, and you'll see me there." At this point the guy walked around my car. He had his hand in his waistband.

There is no circling of the truck in the NEN commentary, nor in the earlier parts of the 2/29 interview.

2/29-1, 21:31-51

Serino: What do you think his mindset was? I'm telling you right now, the kid has no violent background, no violent tendencies that we can find. What made him snap? He's not on drugs. Can you fill in that blank?

Zimmerman: The other thing was, when he walked up to my car, he reached in his waistband, and held his hand there.

On 2/29 it was walking up to, no longer walking around. The investigators didn't ask what happened to the circling. Singleton echoed Zimmerman's language.

2/29-1, 22:32-41

Singleton: I'm not, I still don't understand. When he walked up to your car, why didn't you say anything to him?

Zimmerman: I guess fear. I didn't want to confront him.

In the NEN commentary, Serino asked Zimmerman what was happening as he gave the dispatcher directions.

2/29-3, 4:46-5:08 

Call:

Zimmerman: Yeah. When you come to the clubhouse you come straight in and make a left.

Serino: What's happening now? Are you guys walking now? Is he walking?

Zimmerman: No, that's, I was parked where I could see him now.

Singleton: So you're definitely not in front of the clubhouse anymore, at this point.

Zimmerman: No. Hmm-mm. No.

Serino: So you're ahead of him?

Zimmerman: No, I was behind him.

Has Martin circled the truck already? Or is he about to reach the 'darkened area of the sidewalk', then quickly turn on his heel to approach and circle the truck?

The darkened area is, I estimate, about 140 to 150 feet from Zimmerman's truck.

A Honda Ridgeline is about 17 feet long, and about 6 feet wide. Walking around it from the front would be a minimum distance of about 40 feet.

Martin has about 15 seconds before he starts running. He will need to walk at about 12 feet per second to approach and circle the truck in that time. Then he will need to run at close to 30 feet per second, the speed of an Olympic sprinter, to reach and turn the corner so that Zimmerman, having presumably turned on his high-beam headlights, can observe Martin running 'Down toward the other entrance to the neighborhood'.

[spectator]

I just listened to that 1 second of tape , and i definitely don't hear GZ saying clubhouse.

It sort of sounds like "i forgot/forget the way i say/said it" or  maybe " that's the way i said/say it",  but it's very hard to make out.

One thing for sure, i only hear Sean's "clubhouse", which overlaps/collides with the first part of GZ's mystery response, and the latter part  is overlapped with Sean's explosive "do you know what the" 

There's no clubhouse from GZ, IMO. 

You have to ask yourself, did GZ recognize his error when Sean pointed it out(1eleven), and then responded to that very clear question, or did he say something(he's at the clubhouse) that conflicts with the timeline and with what he explained the following day ?.


It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.

[MJW]

It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.

I'll once again recommend the free program Audacity. It allows the same segment to be endlessly repeated, and can also slow it down without altering the pitch.

[DebFrmHell]

I just listened to that 1 second of tape , and i definitely don't hear GZ saying clubhouse.

It sort of sounds like "i forgot/forget the way i say/said it" or  maybe " that's the way i said/say it",  but it's very hard to make out.

One thing for sure, i only hear Sean's "clubhouse", which overlaps/collides with the first part of GZ's mystery response, and the latter part  is overlapped with Sean's explosive "do you know what the" 

There's no clubhouse from GZ, IMO. 

You have to ask yourself, did GZ recognize his error when Sean pointed it out(1eleven), and then responded to that very clear question, or did he say something(he's at the clubhouse) that conflicts with the timeline and with what he explained the following day ?.


It's even harder to understand what's being said if you keep repeating anymore than that 1 second of tape. so one can always get used to holding down the rewind button(don't click) at axiom to keep repeating that 1 second portion, if you don't have the time or software/program.

LeeM is a friend of Jeralyn's and he is an audio expert.  This is his transcript, published by permission, from the NEN call.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf

[MJW]

LeeM is a friend of Jeralyn's and he is an audio expert.  This is his transcript, published by permission, from the NEN call.

http://www.talkleft.com/zimm/alternatetranscript.pdf

I don't trust his interpretation of what GZ said any more than I trust anyone else's. For instance, I still believe GZ says "that's my truck" not "they'll see my truck." In Audacity, the waveform of what's either "that's" or "they''ll see,"  is a single "blip," not two, as I'd expect for two words. I recorded myself saying both phrases, and no matter how hard I tried to slur together "they'll see," it still showed up as two blips.

[Departure]

I don't trust his interpretation of what GZ said any more than I trust anyone else's.

I disagree with many things in that transcript as well.

For instance, I still believe GZ says "that's my truck" not "they'll see my truck."

Are you using the 7.65 MB WAV file as your source?  When you believe you hear "that's my truck", is that during crosstalk, or no?  The part you're referring to, I believe I hear GZ say "You'll see my truck", and then as Sean is talking over him, GZ continues with "You'll see my by my truck".

[MJW]

I disagree with many things in that transcript as well.

Are you using the 7.65 MB WAV file as your source?  When you believe you hear "that's my truck", is that during crosstalk, or no?  The part you're referring to, I believe I hear GZ say "You'll see my truck", and then as Sean is talking over him, GZ continues with "You'll see my by my truck".

That's is the file I'm using, along with a mono version. The section I'm referring to is from about 3:17 to about 3:18 and is not covered up with crosstalk. I can't tell what GZ says during the following crosstalk, though I'm pretty sure he doesn't say "The keys are in the ignition" as some claim.

I hope it's okay with TalkLeft to insert an image.

The following image (assuming it works) shows the waveform, pitch, and spectrum for that phrase. It looks to me like there's one, not two, syllables in the disputed section.



The image is from my Flickr page.

[Departure]

That's is the file I'm using, along with a mono version.

I'm trying to determine if the file/source you're using is the same as the one I'm using.  The file I'm using is 8,032,066 bytes, and it's a .WAV extension file.  If you're using a .WAV file, and it's the exact same size, then it's almost certainly the same file I'm using.  It's important to make sure we're analyzing/listening to the same source.  The full file name for my source is "ZIMMERMAN-911-0316.wav"

The section I'm referring to is from about 3:17 to about 3:18 and is not covered up with crosstalk. I can't tell what GZ says during the following crosstalk, though I'm pretty sure he doesn't say "The keys are in the ignition" as some claim.

I hope it's okay with TalkLeft to insert an image.

The following image (assuming it works) shows the waveform, pitch, and spectrum for that phrase. It looks to me like there's one, not two, syllables in the disputed section.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8095/8508476222_16b1f4f126_z.jpg

The image is from my Flickr page.

Honestly, just use your ears.  I think you're overcomplicating this process.  Listen to it, and it's pretty obvious that he's saying "You'll see my truck".  That's why it's important that we're using the same source, so we know we're listening to the same thing (not factoring in the speakers/headphones we're using to listen).

Also, I can't imagine how anybody got "The keys are in the ignition" from the crosstalk section there.  It doesn't sound even remotely like that.

[nomatter_nevermind]

I'll once again recommend the free program Audacity.

I know of no evidence that this program is any good. All that I've heard about it suggests that it isn't.