Author Topic: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records  (Read 32204 times)

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Offline MJW

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #105 on: January 23, 2013, 01:20:28 PM »
The 6:53 and 6:54 calls can be confirmed as DeeDee calls by looking carefully at the partially blurred images of the numbers from ABC news shown in DiwawtaMan's article on the phone records.

Offline MJW

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #106 on: January 23, 2013, 03:40:08 PM »
Here's something interesting I noticed. I rechecked DiwataMan's article, and noticed I could only see one of the blurred phone numbers for the outgoing calls at  6:53 and 6:54. I wanted to verify both numbers, so I searched for the original ABC report, since the one on the ABC website seems to have vanished. I found a copy, and watched the relevant section a bunch of times, trying my best to pause it at the correct moments. I noticed that it doesn't seem to match the PDF version I have a link to. The PDF version has both the outgoing 6:54 and 6:53 calls listed on the same page, but the one in the video ends with the 6:54 call. I'd previously noticed an anomaly in the PDF version of the 6:53 call, where the date and time are on the same line, running together.

(I'm slightly sickened by bias in the ABC report, still using pictures of Martin when he was just a tyke. And that "records obtained by ABC news" garbage. I guess it sounds more impressive than "records handed to us by Benjamin Crump.")

Offline unitron

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #107 on: January 23, 2013, 07:13:24 PM »
This timeline may be helpful in understanding the call sequence. Keep in mind the call start times are rounded down and the end times are rounded up. "ND.nonTMob" stands for North Dade, non-T-Mobile.  Zimmerman's NEN call is shown, with the times rounded like the other calls.


6:30 TM->DD
6:31   |
6:32   |
6:33   |
6:34   |
6:35   |
6:36   |
6:37   |
6:38   |
6:39   |
6:40   |
6:41   |      TMob->TM
6:42   |        |
6:43   |        |
6:44            |
6:45 TM->DD
6:46   |      TM->ND.nonTMob
6:47   |        |
6:48   |        |
6:49 DD->TM
6:50   |
6:51   |
6:52   |
6:53   |      TM->DD
6:54 DD->TM   TM->DD
6:55   |        |
6:56   |                     
6:57   |
6:58   |
6:59   |
7:00   |
7:01   |
7:02   |
7:03   |
7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        |
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |      (Z's NEN Call)
7:10   |        \
7:11   |        /
7:12 DD->TM     \
7:13   |        /
7:14   |        \
7:15   |
7:16   |



If I could impose upon you to save me a lot of reading and cross-checking and general thinking hard and making my brain hurt, when along that time line would you say the young lady places Martin's first mention of Zimmerman?

Offline MJW

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #108 on: January 23, 2013, 09:27:13 PM »
If I could impose upon you to save me a lot of reading and cross-checking and general thinking hard and making my brain hurt, when along that time line would you say the young lady places Martin's first mention of Zimmerman?

An interesting question, but one to which I can't even offer a reasonable guess.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #109 on: January 23, 2013, 11:41:06 PM »
If I could impose upon you to save me a lot of reading and cross-checking and general thinking hard and making my brain hurt, when along that time line would you say the young lady places Martin's first mention of Zimmerman?

For a first approximation, it was during the next to last call, so between 6:54 and 7:12

Dee Dee said a 'couple minutes' passed between Martin reaching the mail shade and telling her about Zimmerman. (5:58-6:23) She didn't suggest such an uneventful interval between Martin telling her about Zimmerman and deciding to start walking. She also said that concern about being watched was the reason for that decision.

6:43-48
Quote
Dee Dee: He was telling me that, like, he, this man was watching him, so he [unintelligible] started walking.

The 7:12 call interruption was the next thing Dee Dee mentioned after Martin started walking. So, I would say Martin telling Dee Dee about Zimmerman could have been as late as 7:11, more likely a minute or two earlier.

Zimmerman's NEN call connected at 7:09:34 (p. 46 of the logs).

Offline leftwig

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #110 on: January 24, 2013, 07:30:39 AM »
I'd say its anybody's guess.  Many have assumed (myself included) that the time of TM running into the the "gated place" and taking shelter at the "mail thingy" corresponds with the start of the 6:54 call which lasted 18 minutes, ending at 7:12 which is when TM "ran" from GZ.  However, if you look at her testimony, Dee Dee says that when TM was about to leave the shelter to start walking, the phone hung up and she called him back.  If we trust her recollection of when the phone hung up and it being tied to an event (phone hung up when TM ran for shelter, phone hung up as he started walking from under shelter, phone hung up when TM ran from GZ), then the phone hanging up when he was about to leave shelter and start walking would have to coincide with the start of the 6:54 call and that would put TM running for shelter at an earlier call that got disconnected.   

Personally, I don't think we can use Dee Dee's testimony to establish much of a timeline of where TM was and when as her description of calls hanging up and what was happening at the time doesn't seem to fit.  I'm not suggesting she is making stuff up, but that her recollection, like most witnesses isn't exact. 

One question about the cellphone records.  This may have been discussed here before, but I was reading at another site about how T Mobile shows times/length of calls on there bills.  They said if a call started at 7:11:59 and ended at 7:12:01, the bill would show this as a 2 minute call that started at 7:11.  Is this correct?  If true, this would mean that Dee Dee's last call would have started between 7:11:00 and 7:11:59 and ended between 7:15:01 and 7:15:59.  We know that seconds haven't been provided to us, but is second component of when a call started/ended available from TMobile? 

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #111 on: January 24, 2013, 08:19:56 AM »
I would reserve opinion until such time that actual records could be reviewed IOW I do not trust the file provided by Attn. Crump.
I have no reason to believe he has or will submit verifiable and accurate records,  the recent shenanigans with the recording device and the discrepancy of recording times is but one example.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #112 on: January 24, 2013, 10:59:03 AM »
However, if you look at her testimony, Dee Dee says that when TM was about to leave the shelter to start walking, the phone hung up and she called him back.

I'd been assuming that Martin started walking before the call drop. Actually, though, the call drop was the next event in Dee Dee's narrative after Martin told her he was going to start walking. So it could have been after he started walking, or just before.

Quote
If we trust her recollection of when the phone hung up and it being tied to an event (phone hung up when TM ran for shelter, phone hung up as he started walking from under shelter, phone hung up when TM ran from GZ)

I think you're mistaken about the last one. It's not on the SAO interview. I don't think the recordings of the Crump interview have anything intelligible about the call drops, except the final one after the start of the confrontation.

If the NEN connection time of 7:09:34 corresponds to the start of the recording, then the 7:12 call drop would have happened after Zimmerman said Martin was running. It may have been well after Martin stopped running, because of the rounding issue you mentioned. But Willisnewton speculated that Martin stopped running because his phone rang. That was consistent with one of his pet theories, so it was one of the points that he repeated a bit. I'm thinking that may be where you got the idea of a call drop at that time.     

Quote
They said if a call started at 7:11:59 and ended at 7:12:01, the bill would show this as a 2 minute call that started at 7:11.

I've been hearing this for a long time. We were discussing it on the blog before the forum opened. It seems to be agreed to by everyone who claims to know. I can't say I've seen an authoritative source.

Quote
We know that seconds haven't been provided to us, but is second component of when a call started/ended available from TMobile?

It's my understanding that such information should be retrievable from the phone itself.

Offline MJW

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #113 on: January 24, 2013, 11:31:03 AM »
One question about the cellphone records.  This may have been discussed here before, but I was reading at another site about how T Mobile shows times/length of calls on there bills.  They said if a call started at 7:11:59 and ended at 7:12:01, the bill would show this as a 2 minute call that started at 7:11.  Is this correct?

I've said that myself, but I don't think it's correct. The bill gives only start time and length -- no end time. I think the actual method is that the start time is the minute in which the call began, rounded down, and the length is the length of the call, rounded up. So a call that began at 7:12:10 and ended at 7:12:25 would be listed as a 1 minute call at 7:12.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #114 on: January 24, 2013, 12:52:54 PM »
I think you're mistaken about the last one. It's not on the SAO interview. I don't think the recordings of the Crump interview have anything intelligible about the call drops, except the final one after the start of the confrontation.

If the NEN connection time of 7:09:34 corresponds to the start of the recording, then the 7:12 call drop would have happened after Zimmerman said Martin was running. It may have been well after Martin stopped running, because of the rounding issue you mentioned. But Willisnewton speculated that Martin stopped running because his phone rang. That was consistent with one of his pet theories, so it was one of the points that he repeated a bit. I'm thinking that may be where you got the idea of a call drop at that time.     

You are absolutely correct about the first part.  Her last call starts with TM having just left the mail thingy to walk, not with him running from GZ.  The previous call ends with him about to walk and the next call begins with him already walking, so how far he might have been from the mail thingy that Dee Dee describes is anyones guess.

So if I have this correct now, the 6:54 call that had TM running for shelter,  started anywhere from 6:54:00 - 6:54:59 lasted 18 minutes and if the call closing time is rounded up, means it ended between 7:11:00 and 7:11:59 (it lasted at most 18 minutes and as little as 16 min and 2 sec).  The next incoming call from Dee Dee connects at 7:12, or sometime between 7:12:00 and 7:12:59.  Depending on the actual gap between those 2 calls (which could be up to nearly 2 minutes), its possible for TM to have walked casually to the 'T' during that time, however, the starting time of that call (sometime after 7:12) doesn't fit the NEN call of when GZ said TM ran which was around  7:11:40.   This is probably where I got confused above because the last call connection appears to have connected after TM ran, not before as Dee Dee recalls.  The call drop could have occurred before or at the time TM ran, but the last call would have to have been connected after he ran.  Thats a significant point given Dee Dee's testimony.

What will be most interesting to find out is when the last call got disconnected.  If TMobile rounds calls as indicated, it could have ended anywhere from 7:15:01 to 7:15:59.  She details hearing a verbal confrontation as well as some pushing or shoving and a little bit of get off, so probably about 10-15 seconds or so of active confrontation before the hangup.  That could possibly mean that the confrontation started a little over a minute or so after GZ hung up with NEN.  This is somewhat corroborated by W11's 911 call which connects at 7:16:11.  Give her some time to decide calling 911 was necessary, get upstairs, dial the call and get connected and that probably means the "arguing" started a good 30 seconds or so before the call connected.

I know of no one who uses TMobile, but how the call times are recorded appears to be agreed upon by those who do.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #115 on: January 24, 2013, 12:57:31 PM »
If the NEN connection time of 7:09:34 corresponds to the start of the recording, then the 7:12 call drop would have happened after Zimmerman said Martin was running.

To expand on this a bit, this means that if it is confirmed that the connection time on the event report corresponds to the start of the recording, that would cast doubt on Dee Dee's story. It would also suggest that her story might have been fabricated by someone using Singleton's erroneous timeline, which was included in Serino's report (39-40/184). I did the math on that some time ago, and as I recall it checked out.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #116 on: January 24, 2013, 02:08:26 PM »
Seems like either NEN call timeline helps GZ.  As you mention, if the 7:09:34 time is the correct start time, then Dee Dee's narrative falls apart.  IF Singleton's erroneous timeline is correct (about 2 minutes later than the 7:09:34 which seems to be the accepted start time), then GZ and TM met almost immediately after the NEN call ended and it would be clear that GZ didn't pursue/chase after TM.

Offline unitron

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #117 on: January 24, 2013, 02:40:49 PM »
Susan over at LL2, also a T-mobile customer, did some experimenting back in April for her Timeline thread.

Allow me to let her tell you in her own words--

" Having finally looked at a longer copy of the phone records for Trayvon Martin's phone, I've revised portions of the timeline to reflect the new information contained there. However, I now believe that the T-Mobile call logs are hopelessly unreliable for giving call times with any accuracy more than + 59 seconds. I did some rough experiments with my own phone, since my cell plan is also through T-Mobile, and it appears to me that the recorded times on T-Mobile statements are not at all exact, and can be as much as 59 seconds off from the actual time at which a call was made. Calls were wrongly recorded both as occurring later and sooner than from when they were actually made, so the error isn't due to T-Mobile's clock being fast or slow -- the times are just off.]"

So we can rely on 7:09:34, but 7:12 could be anytime after 7:11 or before 7:13, apparently.

She posited elsewhere that Martin's last call was probably from about 7:11:30 to 7:15:30, which would give the struggle pretty much just enough time to get going good enough to attract attention and result in the 7:16:11 911 call.

Offline MJW

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #118 on: January 24, 2013, 03:44:40 PM »
I added some extra details to my timeline. I also used a colon to mark minutes which the call may or may not have extended into.


6:30 TM->DD
6:31   |
6:32   |
6:33   |
6:34   |
6:35   |
6:36   |
6:37   |
6:38   |
6:39   |
6:40   |
6:41   |      TMob->TM
6:42   |        |
6:43   :        |
6:44            :
6:45 TM->DD
6:46   |      TM->ND.nonTMob
6:47   |        |
6:48   |        :
6:49 DD->TM
6:50   |
6:51   |
6:52   |
6:53   :      TM->DD
6:54 DD->TM   TM->DD
6:55   |        :
6:56   |                     
6:57   |
6:58   |
6:59   |
7:00   |
7:01   |
7:02   |
7:03   |
7:04   |      nonTMob->TM
7:05   |        :
7:06   |
7:07   |
7:08   |      *Text->TM*
7:09   |      (Z's NEN Call: 7:09:34)
7:10   |        | (He's got a button on his shirt: 7:10:45)
7:11   |        | (He's running: 7:11:41)
7:12 DD->TM     | (He ran: 7:12:10)
7:13   |        | (End: 7:13:38)
7:14   |
7:15   |
7:16   :     (W11: 7:16:11) (W3: 7:16:41) (Gun shot: 17:16:56)
7:17         (W18: 7:17:06) (W6: 7:17:15) (W5: 7:17:54)       
7:18         (W19: 7:18:00)
7:19         (W14, W15: 7:19:04)


Offline MJW

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Re: Trayvon Martin's Cellphone Records
« Reply #119 on: January 24, 2013, 04:03:50 PM »
To expand on this a bit, this means that if it is confirmed that the connection time on the event report corresponds to the start of the recording, that would cast doubt on Dee Dee's story. It would also suggest that her story might have been fabricated by someone using Singleton's erroneous timeline, which was included in Serino's report (39-40/184). I did the math on that some time ago, and as I recall it checked out.

Those seem to me to be very significant observations. I suspect DeeDee and Crump will be asked about that.

 

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