Author Topic: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection  (Read 17877 times)

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Offline DebFrmHell

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Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« on: September 22, 2012, 11:35:35 PM »
THIS IS FOR DISCUSSION OF POSSIBLE ROUTES FOR MARTIN AND ZIMMERMAN AS THEY MET AT THE "T"

THERE IS TO BE ABSOLUTELY NO CHARACTER ASSASSINATIONS OF EITHER MARTIN OR ZIMMERMAN.
PER JERALYN!
Example:
What is not acceptable: He went home to drop off drugs or his phone.
What is acceptable: the timeline and conversation with DeeDee show he had enough time to go home and return.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2012, 11:54:54 PM »
That said, there are things to be used that are in evidence such as Dee Dee's statement, the NEN, Witness accounts, and Zimmerman's statements.

The reason I wanted to start this thread is because I cannot get an answer as to how Trayvon Martin ended up at that intersection.  For me and IMO, unless the Prosecution can answer that question their whole Probable Cause is a wash. 

The chase mentioned in the PC has to be based on W2's statements and she couldn't say who was chasing whom.  There was nothing distinguishable to even deduce if the two persons were male or female, not even clothing.  She had on neither her glasses or contacts.  I think at one stage she narrowed it down some more.

Bernie de la Rionda tried to get Dee to admit that Zimmerman got out of the car to chase Trayvon Martin and that Martin had seen that.  She basically told him "No.  He said he lost him."

Ideas?
« Last Edit: September 22, 2012, 11:59:52 PM by DebFrmHell »

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2012, 07:01:12 AM »
Here is the link to Jeralyn's George Zimmerman Case:  Timelines and Routes

Timelines and Routes

...
 7:09:34, GZ non-emergency call connects with dispatch. GZ and the dispatcher say goodbye and hang up 4:04 seconds later, at 7:13:38 (the last few seconds of recording are dead time after parties hang up, so I have excluded them.)

7:11:28: Time Trayvon starts running towards the back entrance according to GZ's call. It occurs 2:08 into the call, which starts at 7:09:24. Presumably, he is headed to the home of Ms. Green, his father's fiance.

7:13:38: The time GZ's call ends (4:04 seconds after it starts)

7:16:11: First 911 call comes in. Calculated from: The shot is heard in the first two 911 calls at 7:16:56. It occurs 45 seconds into first 911 call, which means that call came in at 7:16:11. Voices are heard immediately, so encounter is underway at 7:16:11

2 min. 43 sec: The time between the end of GZ's call at 7:13:38 and the first sounds of struggle at 7:16:11 is 2:43 seconds.

4 min. 39 sec: The time between when Trayvon started running towards the back entrance at 7:11:42, presumably headed to Ms. Green's home, and 7:16:11, when the first sounds of a struggle are heard in the first 911 call. 2:08 into GZ's call, which began at 7:09:34, or 7:11:42.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2012, 08:08:23 AM »
A couple of comments:

- W2 I believe modified her statement to say that she wasn't sure if she saw one person or more than one or multiple shadows of one or more people.  I believe her change in testimony helps GZ's case more than W6's change hurt him.  She initially stated seeing a chase of multiple individuals, one chasing the other in close quarters and amended it to being someone (possibly one, possibly two, but not sure) heading north in the direction of the T.  Her initial statement would have been in direct contradiction with GZ and Dee Dee's statements, but the ambiguity in her modified statement allows room to fit GZ's account quite well (TM being the lone individual/shadow moving north toward GZ and the T).

- The 16:11 timeline is when the first call from a witness connected with a 911 dispatcher.  I would assume that arguing sounds and the conflict started sooner.  I don't recall how long the witness that placed that call guestimated the time between first hearing any voices to placing the 911 call, but from their statements, it seems like it would have been in the neighborhood of 45-60 seconds (heard voices, was going to tell them to shut up, it died down then heard scuffling in/near bushes, then oohs and aahs, then screams for help which is what raised their fear and prompted her to run upstairs and call 911 and him to go look for a weapon for defense).


- IS the thread to be possible routes TM and GZ took to get to the T where  they met face to face, or are you just looking at TM's routes?

Offline AghastInFL

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2012, 08:46:58 AM »
Just for some perspective, 4min 30sec, interestingly enough:
the average time for a High School varsity track member to complete a mile...
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_average_competitive_high_school_mile_time

or, from my play list songs that have a run time of ~4:39:
Paradise; Cold Play
From this moment; Shania Twain
One Thing; Finger Eleven
Hey you; Pink Floyd
The Phantom of the Opera; S. Harley S. Brightman

I did not check the run time on Yakety Sax but undeniably with multiple routes available to leave or enter the dog walk area, any number of alternatives are available; at the end the confrontation occurs very nearly the exact location where Martin disappeared from sight.
I believe he had to return I see no other plausible scenario.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2012, 12:21:40 PM »
I titled it at Jeralyn's suggestion.  I sent her a PM because I wanted to discuss this but I was worried about rampant speculation.  That is why I have that big old reminder in red.

I am more interested in Martin but the thread is open for both.  IIRC, Zimmerman said that he went all the way to RVC but it has been a long time since I have been able to watch it again.  (My computer crashed and I have a lot of problems with audio and video)

My only real question is how did that young man "lose GZ" and manage to find him again a couple of minutes later.   

I don't think he went all the way to the Green TH.  Maybe up just one building then went between to TTL to see if GZ was still parked there.  He could have seen the empty truck since that side of the building has lighting then went back to the dog walk and north towards the "T."  If he spotted GZ at the dog walk station, he could have gone into hiding around that time.  Somehow he managed to kill a couple of minutes.  I don't think he was idle behind those bushes or fence that whole time.

I don't think that W6's change hurt Zimmerman at all.  He said that he couldn't see mouths move but he also said that logic dictated that the person on the bottom would be the one yelling for help.  I agree with that.  (paraphrased since I am doing this from memory)

W2's change helped GZ, IMO, for the reason you listed.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2012, 03:06:26 PM »
Trayvon had plenty of time to get home if that was his objective. There is no reason for him to be where GZ was unless that was his objective.

Dee Dee verified that Trayvon did not see Zimmerman exit his vehicle, stated he lost GZ and stated he was almost at his dad’s house before claiming Trayvon saw GZ again. He had plenty of time to get home when he had no reason to believe he was being followed. The much repeated “didn’t want GZ to know which house he lived” myth holds no water.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2012, 03:30:40 PM »
To borrow from Crump, "the objective evidence says he pursued, confronted and" assaulted George Zimmerman.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2012, 07:15:27 PM »
I guess we should accept GZ's version of where he went unless there is contradictory evidence.  While GZ's timeline of where he was at exact moments when he said things to the dispatcher, his route from his vehicle until he meets TM face to face remains intact.  Dee Dee doesn't interject anything on where GZ was after TM ran (nor really does she for TM either other than being "right by his fathers house").

As for TM, Dee Dee says he passes GZ's car on TTL, checks him out, then is about to "run from the back".  I don't see any chance he took off down TTL because GZ could have seen him if heading that way.  I guess its not impossible he walked down TTL, then took off ducking between the houses, but it doesn't fit GZ's description, nor Dee Dee's that he ran from the back which I take to mean ran towards the back of BG's house.  Its also possible he didn't run down the T, but went all the way through to RVC and ran down that street towards the front of his house.  I too think this is less likely because of what Dee Dee said and GZ's account. 

So that leaves us with TM at least starting down the path in back of the homes to lose GZ being the most likely start to his journey.  I guess its debatable how far he went south down the T before stopping.  If you believe Dee Dee, he ran far/hard enough to be out of breath for several minutes and was "right by his fathers house" after he stopped running (no mention of being near his fathers house before running when he was near the T).  The only reason I could think for not moving far away from the T would be to wait in ambush.  IF he was scared, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense not to run given his head start and to remain on the line talking to his friend.  I think you'd have to completely wipe out Dee Dee's narrative if this is what TM did (says he ran far enough to be out of breath and not able to see GZ and started walking back again).  Admittedly, I think Dee Dee is not terribly reliable, but I do believe TM made it somewhere near the back of BG's (within a few yards).  I think he wanted to be a safe distance away from GZ because he didn't know who he was or how big he was as he sat in his vehicle.  Also, if he only moved a little distance from the T, he would have seen GZ walking too and past the T the first time and if he wanted to confront him, TM could have done it then if he hadn't moved far from the T.  There are also statements from several about TM being accosted from BG's porch.  They don't give specifics as to why they believe this, but I assume they have a reason for such and I don't see that they could have that reason unless there was evidence TM had been out there after returning from the store.  Supposed;y Chad told them TM left and never returned from the store, but the next day BG says TM was attacked while he was just sitting on her back porch.  Why?  She hadn't talked to Dee Dee and Chad had said TM never returned from the store, so why did she think he was sitting on her back porch when attacked?  Then there is W2's account.  She has someone (or someones) moving from the back of her home towards the T, but if TM was going to duck around the corner at the T, I'd assume he would have stayed on John's side of the complex as it would have given him more cover from where GZ was coming from. 

I think it makes the most sense that he ran far enough from the T to be away from GZ should he follow, which I think would have put him really close to BG;s house (this fits Dee Dee's narrative more than ducking around the corner and sitting somewhere for 3-4 minutes).  I think he then went walking back the same direction he just ran from.  Exactly when he did this, I don't know, but I'd assume GZ wasn't standing at the T as he did this.  GZ indicates he walked through to RVC as he talked to the dispatcher and finished his conversation there which would have given TM ample time to head back up towards the T before GZ concluded his call and returned towards his truck.  Why he did this (or just hid around the corner without running home, or did something else entirely) is yet another mystery.  Dee Dee is probably the only one that could provide insight on this, but she doesn't, at the failing of her interviewer.   Hopefully MOM can obtain some clarity from her.   

Certainly there are other possible routes, but I think the totality of the evidence available along with the amount of time the events occurred, I think this scenario makes the most sense.

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2012, 07:31:33 PM »
IF he was scared, it wouldn't make a whole lot of sense not to run.

Have you ever tried running in the dark?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2012, 07:50:22 PM »
BG says TM was attacked while he was just sitting on her back porch. 

Brandy Green did not say that.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2012, 07:56:01 PM »
I am quite pessimistic that we ever will learn what Trayvon's route was.  I have long dismissed DeeDee and Witness #2 as having anything credible to say.  The only thing that can be established with certainty is that Trayvon opted not to go home when he could have.  I think a more important question is what did Zimmerman do that so infuriated Martin?  Did it happen before or after they met at the T?  I have the suspicion, like Serino evidently did, that Zimmerman has withheld some information out of shame. However I doubt we could figure it out on the basis of such sparse evidence.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2012, 09:57:19 PM »
Brandy Green did not say that.

She said TM was just sitting on the back porch and this man killed him.  Tracy said he had last seen Trayvon the night before and that was in Orlando, not at BG's.  When do you think it is that she references him sitting on the porch?

As to your other comment, I have run in the dark many times.  Whats the point of the question?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2012, 10:18:58 PM »
When do you think it is that she references him sitting on the porch?

I don't know. She didn't say.

Offline Redbrow

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2012, 10:35:41 PM »
Here is Tracy Martin explaining Trayvon's route. He says Trayvon "did come in that back gate and I knew he was going to the back of the house...HE WAS SITTING OUT THERE."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=x34vSJrIqe0#!


This seems to confirm Brandy Greens statement that "he was sitting out on the porch."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBySHhZftr8

Did they find something belonging to Trayvon or did someone tell them? Who could have informed them that Trayvon was on the porch just before the confrontation?

 

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