Author Topic: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection  (Read 17875 times)

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Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #90 on: December 07, 2012, 07:01:52 AM »
Can you establish any relationship between the direction and training offered by the Sanford PD and these documents?.

Affiliation with the national organization is voluntary for Neighborhood Watches. The Sanford NW is not affiliated.

I'm sorry I don't have a cite for that offhand. It was widely reported early in the case.


Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #91 on: December 07, 2012, 07:18:35 AM »
The manual is online.  There is a big blue bordered box in Chapter 6 where they say your job is to observe and report, not take action on your observations.  I think there is a clear implication that you shouldn't expose yourself to unnecessary danger to make additional observations.  Leaving the car, running in the direction Martin went, shortly after Martin circled it in a threatening manner, was just the sort of thing they don't want you to do. 

Another resource has these guidelines.  Zimmerman leaving the car certainly had the danger of violating the one about never challenging anyone.

Beth Kassab had a couple of articles in March in the Orlando Sentinel where she was quite scathing about other Zimmerman violations of the guidelines of neighborhood watch.

The problem with all this, RJ, is that there are several different so called neighborhood watch groups. Indeed, if you google "neighborhood watch guidelines" you'll find approximately 3.28 million responses.

Add to that GZ not being on NW duty--and you've got...well, I don't know what it is exactly, but you should probably wash it off your hands.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #92 on: December 07, 2012, 07:22:06 AM »


Beth Kassab had a couple of articles in March in the Orlando Sentinel where she was quite scathing about other Zimmerman violations of the guidelines of neighborhood watch.

Oh--and your pal Kassab also has this golden nugget: "Nowhere does it list walking while black..."

So yeah--we should all sit up and take everything she says like it's...what? Serious? Yeah.

Offline leftwig

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #93 on: December 07, 2012, 07:32:03 AM »
For starters, Serino in his capias request made an issue of Zimmerman not identifying himself as NW.

One of Serino's more laughable comments given the sequence.

TM:  You gotta a problem homey?
GZ:  No
TM:  You do now.
GZ:  [turns and reaches for phone, TM decks him]

Serino's scenario?

TM:  You gotta problem homey?
GZ:  No, I'm with neighborhood watch
TM:  Oh sweet, Just went to the store and got some tea and Skittles for my brother and we're gonna watch the game.  You wanna come over?

Certainly any number of actions by both parties that could have changed the outcome.  By the time TM walked up to George to confront him, I think the outcome was probably determined.

Offline DebFrmHell

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #94 on: December 07, 2012, 08:59:52 AM »
All my opinion...  There is bad judgement and intent.  The two things are very different to me.

Did Martin show intent by returning to or remaining around that "T" intersection after being closer to the Green TH?  TO ME, his very act of returning shows his intent.  Zimmerman had injuries.  Martin had an abrasion.  Zimmerman has witnesses how saw parts of the altercation prior to and after the gunshot.  There is nothing that supports Martin other than his mother saying that it was him yelling for help and Dee Dee, who is questionable since her statement came after the NEN call was released to Crump and Jackson.

**I say returning because I do not believe that he was laying in wait for Zimmerman the entire 3+ min he was off the grid.**

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2012, 09:25:50 AM »
Quotes from an article published elsewhere with false speculation about when George exited his car and his actions thereafter deleted. Do not post speculation  you read elsewhere that is unsupported by the pleadings or discovery here.  I don't want baseless speculation associated with this site.

The point of alluding to that speculation was to raise again the question of where Zimmerman left his car, not to take the theory seriously.  Apparently before the walkthrough, Zimmerman's never mentioned that he drove from the clubhouse to the cut through and then exited the car.  AFAIK, no police report discusses the location of the car.  I would think that the defense would want to close this gap in the evidentiary record so that the prosecution doesn't have an opening due to it.  Perhaps they did during the recent police interviews.  I think pin pointing that Zimmerman got out of the car near the cut through is important in verifying his credibility as well as showing that Martin lurked in the vicinity of the T, especially for the immunity hearing.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2012, 09:53:45 AM »
Can you establish any relationship between the direction and training offered by the Sanford PD and these documents?.
The FBI reports contain numerous interviews of of Trainees and Police Department liaisons to the watch program. I don't remember any references to these two documents.


Please explain how these sources you cite are relevant to the instructions and directions provided by the PD to GZ

Well welcome back.  You must have been lurking, just waiting for an opportunity to torment me.   ;D

I think I will take a hint from FB and not do any further research on what instructions SPD gave to people doing nightwatch work in their area.  I will say that when I watched the walkthrough after listening to the NEN call, and heard Zimmerman's description of how Martin came back from the cut through, circled his car tugging at his waistband, and then returned to the cut through and Zimmerman then exiting the vehicle going into the same dimly lit area as Martin, I said out loud, "Are you freaken nuts, man?".  That is my opinion regardless what the instructions from neighborhood watch are.  Yes, of course it didn't violate any Florida legal statutes.  That Zimmerman said something on Hannity to the effect that he would do it again, makes me think he may not come off in court as a particularly sympathetic character to a judge and jury.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 09:55:43 AM by RickyJim »

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2012, 09:55:25 AM »
Apparently before the walkthrough, Zimmerman's never mentioned that he drove from the clubhouse to the cut through and then exited the car. 

Zimmerman first mentioned that in part 2 of the 2/26 Singleton interview. That is when Zimmerman went over the whole story with Singleton for the second time, marking locations and routes on a map.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2012, 10:01:35 AM »
Zimmerman first mentioned that in part 2 of the 2/26 Singleton interview. That is when Zimmerman went over the whole story with Singleton for the second time, marking locations and routes on a map.

Thanks for the correction.  Are the marks Zimmerman made visible on that map?  If not, what is the point of including it in discovery?

Offline nomatter_nevermind

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2012, 10:03:56 AM »
I think I will take a hint from FB and not do any further research on what instructions SPD gave to people doing nightwatch work in their area. 

Some work on that has been done in the thread on Wendy Dorival.

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #100 on: December 07, 2012, 10:13:35 AM »
  That Zimmerman said something on Hannity to the effect that he would do it again, makes me think he may not come off in court as a particularly sympathetic character to a judge and jury.

What was he supposed to say? He did what he he thought was right at the time. If you do what's right according to whatever code you subscribe to, you don't get to change it based on hindsight unless you're a limp-spined fish.

To put it another way: he goes on Hannity and says he wishes he'd never gotten out of the car or never done ...whatever...then he's going to drown in headlines that say "Zimmerman Acknowledges Mistake!" and worse.


Query: why, in all your posts about this sort of thing, do you never hold TM to anywhere near the same level you hold GZ? If TM had gone straight home, hadn't doubled back, hadn't attacked GZ etc etc....


Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #101 on: December 07, 2012, 10:15:14 AM »
Some work on that has been done in the thread on Wendy Dorival.

Thanks again NMNM.  Your post in that thread has better material on what the NW rules were in Sanford than what I gave above.  In particular a more relevant manual.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2012, 10:25:19 AM by RickyJim »

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #102 on: December 07, 2012, 10:36:44 AM »
Query: why, in all your posts about this sort of thing, do you never hold TM to anywhere near the same level you hold GZ? If TM had gone straight home, hadn't doubled back, hadn't attacked GZ etc etc....

Way back I tried to post on what Martin's defense would be had he killed Zimmerman.  Those posts were deleted.   ::)  Sorry that I try to understand all sides of an issue and am not a Zimmerman admirer, although I have gone, in recent months, from regarding it 50-50 that he shot in self defense to 51-49.  Both, of course, fully in the acquittal zone.  My antagonists on HuffPo would be amused by your implication that somehow I am on their side.   ;D

Offline annoyedbeyond

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #103 on: December 07, 2012, 11:26:17 AM »
Way back I tried to post on what Martin's defense would be had he killed Zimmerman.  Those posts were deleted.   ::)  Sorry that I try to understand all sides of an issue and am not a Zimmerman admirer, although I have gone, in recent months, from regarding it 50-50 that he shot in self defense to 51-49.  Both, of course, fully in the acquittal zone.  My antagonists on HuffPo would be amused by your implication that somehow I am on their side.   ;D

I implied nothing, you inferred, kindly don't. I asked a question.

Offline RickyJim

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Re: Possible Routes to the "T" Intersection
« Reply #104 on: December 07, 2012, 11:48:13 AM »
I implied nothing, you inferred, kindly don't. I asked a question.

My reply was prompted by what I regarded as a bizarre and erroneous question. As I have pointed out, the points I recently brought up have much to do with establishing that Martin lurked in the vicinity of the T instead of going home.

 

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